Concerns about track and trace app. *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[TooTrueToBeGood]

I've just watched Matt Hancock on BBC breakfast and much of the interview was about the soon-to-be-released contact tracing app.

According to MH, all data about who you have been in contact with will be entirely stored on your phone, no data will be sent to some central NHS/Govt database. He stressed several times that no data would be sent to a central system.

Here's how he describes the system working, as I understood him. When an individual finds out they have symptoms, they tell the app on their phone that they are symptomatic. The app then alerts the NHS and the user is sent a test kit. The app also alerts everyone the user has been in contact with that they may have been infected and they too are sent a test kit.

How is this really going to work in practice? Obviously from a privacy point of view people should be reassured that their location and social contact data is not being sent to the govt (though many will not believe that) . However, we are relying on individuals acting timeously when they are advised they may be infected, rather than direct NHS/govt intervention to isolate them. How many people will dilly-dally and go about their business infecting others for a few days until they get the test results?

More importantly, how many people, especially those who are anxious about infection, will figure out that if they dishonestly tell the app they have symptoms, then they and all their friends and family will get sent a test kit? That will just cause mayhem.

did anyone else who saw the interview interpret what he was telling us differently?

All you need to know is once they have your data, you can't get it deleted ever. So a goldmine for historians of the future to delve into, once it's been de-anonymised.

People do know that it's been possible to de-anonymise NHS data for years don't they ? Link to PDF here

Interestingly enough that was in South Korea, which was being touted as the country to follow on this upthread.

How does a video help verify my ID? As far as I know the govt doesn't have any videos of me to compare. It all sounds very dodgy to me.

Are there really people happy to upload their passport and a video and input personal health details, keeping Bluetooth open so everyone can see these?

Looks like it might it not even work anyway,

UK finds itself almost alone with centralized virus contact-tracing app that probably won't work well, asks for your location, may be illegal.

Despite what the NCSC has continued to imply, the app will not, as it stands, work all the time on iOS nor Android since version 8. The operating systems won't allow the tracing application to broadcast its ID via Bluetooth to surrounding devices when it's running in the background and not in active use. Apple's iOS forbids it, and newer Google Android versions limit it to a few minutes after the app falls into the background.

That means that unless people have the NHS app running in the foreground and their phones awake most of the time, the fundamental principle underpinning the entire system – that phones detect each other – won’t work.
www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/05/uk_coronavirus_app/

As far as I know the govt doesn't have any videos of me to compare.

It's more than likely they have, if you've walked anywhere near a CCTV camera that was "trialling" facial recognition.

Presumably the video is to allow them to build a 3D model of your head so that they can recognise your face from all dimensions?
Now you can be recognised by surveillance cameras wherever you go
Job done ✅

I really want to download AN app because it would be an invaluable weapon, but I hate that there’s already so much controversy about this one. Torn.

I don't trust it either OP

I would have preferred the one being made as a joint project using GPS to warn a wider amount of people that Google and Apple were doing. This just contacts people you say you've met, what about those you don't know who may have been on a bus or store with you? GPS would have located those in the vicinity.

After seeing Joe Lycett's Got Your Back last week, it's very easy to hack or spy on people with these apps, and I don't trust the Tories as far as I could throw them so we won't be downloading the app

There are many flaws in this system so it's not even foolproof for those who download the app. One that came to my mind was what happens with people who work in places where they can't have their phones on them whilst working.

That applies to all such apps, presumably.

This just contacts people you say you've met, what about those you don't know who may have been on a bus or store with you? GPS would have located those in the vicinity.

I'm pretty sure that's a complete misunderstanding. You don't need to know the other people or 'say' you've met them. And there's no requirement to know where anyone actually is. All that's needed is for each phone to know its proximity relative to other phones.

I've also seen on twitter (that great source of unconfirmed words) that the app will only contact people who have had 15 mins contact with a covid person. If true, that's back the old definition at the beginning of the outbreak of a close contact.

Anyway...
I think the result of all this will be that people's skepticism and fear-mongering about the homegrown app will mean that the government will say, ok so use the google app instead, and people who'd have otherwise have had loads of reservations about being tracked by a big US corporation will cheerfully sign up.

I'm not entirely sure whether I'm being serious about that or not.

I've also seen on twitter (that great source of unconfirmed words) that the app will only contact people who have had 15 mins contact with a covid person. If true, that's back the old definition at the beginning of the outbreak of a close contact.

I don't know if that's true, but a major advantage of centralised anonymised data would be that it would be more possible to refine the parameters.

Could parameters not be redefined with a de-centralised version via app updates?

It comes to something when I'm happier to trust google/apple than my own government.

Presumably the video is to allow them to build a 3D model of your head so that they can recognise your face from all dimensions?

That has made me consider investing in a roll of aluminium foil...

Or is it a video where they capture the whole of your body?
That way they can analyse your movement patterns and your gait and don't even need your face to recognise you.
It's also theoretically possible for phones to measure the internal dimensions of your living accommodation, build a 3D model of the inside of your house and the objects in it.

Some people are really thriving off scaremongering here.

No you only video your face, they give you a 4 digit number to say In The video

I should’ve screen shot each page and copied to here 😊

That way they can analyse your movement patterns and your gait and don't even need your face to recognise you Can't see that being very accurate, they would be most confused with my husband as if he's just had his morphine his walking is very different to when he is hanging on waiting for the next dose. With me I have days when my arthritic knee changes my gait and days when I can skip along like a spring lamb.

No you only video your face, they give you a 4 digit number to say In The video

So getting a free sample of your voice for "future use".

This just gets better and better.

It's more than likely they have, if you've walked anywhere near a CCTV camera that was "trialling" facial recognition. Well yes but they would have no idea who I was, of course I suppose if you do send them the video they could go back and work out that I shop in Lidl and Sainsburys, visit the nearby city every couple of months and withdraw cash at the local cashpoint. Can't imagine why they'd want to know.

They do have my passport photo but it is 20 years out of date as I've swapped to an Irish passport. Generally people wouldn't recognise me from a passport photo anyway, a photographer once told me I was the hardest person he'd ever had to photograph and he eventually gave up and I was left out of the project. I think to say im not photogenic would be an understatement.

It's also theoretically possible for phones to measure the internal dimensions of your living accommodation, build a 3D model of the inside of your house and the objects in it.

What, like on Time Team where they can recreate an entire Roman Villa from a muddy shard of pottery?

The government want the data so that they can do big data type analysis on it to try and identify trends etc. That's why they've picked this centralised way of doing it it. They've then had to try and work out how to collect it.
The government want the data to keep and do whatever they choose with it. If they are using it to send tests then it won't be anonymous as suggested once they get it all back.
It won't work properly as detailed in the IT press though.

Are there any situations where the info could be ordered de-anonymised? I'm just thinking of a situation in the future where an individual might be a "superspreader" (possibly through no fault of their own) and clients, contacts etc are looking for legal compensation as to why they are all infected when the individual was a common denominator. A "He didn't social distance enough" kind of claim.