University Fees for on-line Lectures

[Kastanien]

Latest this morning(sorry if it is already on here, I checked and could not see a thread)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

Just wondering how those of you with DC due to start (or return to Uni) in the Autumn feel about full tuition fees for on-line learning?
I feel there should be a reduction as the teaching is not the same on-line as face to face.

Not a parent one but I once had a student complain that her mark changed as a result of the moderation process - it went up! She actually gained marks!
It made her lose faith in the whole marking process apparently.

The intention behind it was categorically NOT to equate students with MH issues with drunks. It was merely to equate one situation which shouldn't happen but needs dealing with, to another situation that shouldn't happen but needs dealing with. You're the only one that's interpreted it that way hear. You know if everyone says A and you're the only one that says B, just maybe you're the one that's wrong. Though let's be honest any analogy you'd have found something offensive in.

I know you're just trolling, but there's an underlying anger in your trolling - may I suggest yoga, or mindfulness.
Or wine

You've had the intention explained to you .....you're the only one who has chosen to interpret that way.

It wouldn't have mattered what analogy was used you would have found issues with it or ignored it. Which is what you do with every single post that even hints at showing an academic in a positive light. It's weird....

You know how people make racist comments and then claim that they arent racist, that they didn't intend to offend anyone (with their racist comment)? Yeah, that. Your analogy was offensive. You compared lecturers dealing with students with mental health issues with nurses dealing with paralytic drunks in A and E of a Friday night - you can try and back pedal as much as you like but that is an offensive comparison.

And no, I'm not trolling. What you said was offensive.

The intention behind it was categorically NOT to equate students with MH issues with drunks.

And yet that was precisely what you did - when you compared students with MH issues with drunks.

If you didn't intend to do it, how come you did?

Suggest a better alternative then.

Well, if your aim was to illustrate that lecturers aren't qualified to give this support then there are many other analogies - asking an electrician to do your knee replacement surgery, asking a plumber to fly you on holiday. I don't know, many inoffensive examples of a person asked to.perform a role that they aren't qualified to do. What you did was to compare students with MH issues with paralytic drunks.

You were using nurses dealing with a specific group of particularly challenging people to compare to lecturers dealing with a specific group of students - it's the choice of client groups in both examples that make it offensive.

Those analogies don't even come close to working......
The point being made was that we're not qualified to offer that level of support yet we're expected to.
Nobody is asking a plumber to fly a plane yet every day academics are being asked to provide MH support.

And yet that was precisely what you did - when you compared students with MH issues with drunks.

No they didn’t. They compared having to do something as part of their job which might not be what should be the focus of the job but still needs to dealt with competently and professionally. You’ve had that spelt out tk you but still you insist (incorrectly) that the poster was comparing students with MH issues to drunks.

Are you being purposefully obtuse and argumentative or do you just generally struggle to grasp quite simple points? Maybe both?

SueEllenMishke

Of course they work if the point was to illustrate how lecturers are being asked to do something that they aren't qualified to do

How is using the example of treating paralytic drunks any better an analogy then? Do you think paralytic drunks are comparable to students with mental health issues? Because unless you do, I fail to see how the analogy used was any more suitable than the ones I gave.

asking an electrician to do your knee replacement surgery, asking a plumber to fly you on holiday.

No. You clearly didn't understand my analogy at all - what a surprise. Your examples are of people doing things they are not qualified for. My example was of people not only being asked to do things they're not qualified for, but also deal with situations that can be emotionally traumatic, and should not have occurred in the first place because there should be external safeguards in place.

Remember I was also responding to someone (not you) saying that lecturers should expect this and should actively want to take on a pastoral role.

If you used similar analogies to describe any other group of people then you would be accused of being offensive.

Saying that lecturers helping students with mental health issues is like nurses treating paralytic drunks you are suggesting that there are similarities between the two groups. You can't say that isn't the case. Why choose paralytic drunks, in A and E on a Friday night? That's very specific and very detailed given you now trying to claim that you didn't mean anything by choosing that particular group isn't it?

titchy

Do give over. Firstly, nurses are trained, and very used to dealing with drunks in A and E. It's also not emotionally traumatic unless something else happens as well so that's not a good analogy either. Secondly, what external safeguards do you want, given apparently, none of you are saying that students with mental health issues shouldn't go to uni?

They don't work because plumbers aren't flying planes yet academics aren't just being asked to provide MH support we are providing MH support.
You seem to grasp that it's not right for a plumber to fly a plane yet when any academic on this thread has attempted to explain that providing mental health support isn't our job we've been called uncaring, callous and even accused of causing student suicides!

Again, cos you seem to ignore/not understand the many explanations provided.....the analogy was NOT comparing students with MH issues with drunk A&E patients. You have chosen to interpret it that way.

Titchy, it’s obvious to everyone else what the analogy was. I don’t think Hooves is going to grasp the point no matter how simply you spell it out.

Hooves will never admit they understand it even if they do.... because that would mean saying something positive about an academic.

You seem to grasp that it's not right for a plumber to fly a plane yet when any academic on this thread has attempted to explain that providing mental health support isn't our job we've been called uncaring, callous and even accused of causing student suicides!

I haven't said anything of the sort.

the analogy was NOT comparing students with MH issues with drunk A&E patients. You have chosen to interpret it that way.

That is exactly what the analogy was comparing. And if you don't want people to take offense at something then don't say something that is offensive.

Nurses shouldn’t be dealing with drunks in a&e because in an ideal world there would be enough provision in a community setting that people didn’t abuse alcohol to the extent they end up in hospital.

Lecturers shouldn’t be dealing with students with mental health issues because in an ideal world there would be better access to qualified mental health support services.

Nurses in a&e can patch up a drunk person, make sure they don’t die, keep them safe while they sober up but they can’t tackle the underlying problem. I think most a&e nurses would agree that actually they’re not qualified to do.

A lecturer can metaphorically patch up a student with MH issues but again they can’t tackle the underlying problem. They’re not qualified to do so.

SueEllenMishke

It's got nothing to do with saying something positive about an academic..you seem very hung up on this. My son is a teacher - I have nothing against academics, or educators. I don't agree with institutions taking students money and then leaving them high and dry which is exactly what has happened this year.

So we're back to you really not understanding the analogy.
There are no easier ways of explaining it so I guess we're at an impasse 🤷

JacobReesMogadishu

Most drunk people that I've dealt with in A and E didn't have any underlying issues at all. They just were drunk because of loss of control or poor judgement. So again, still a.poor analogy. Students with mental health issues don't choose to have them do they? Most drunk people in A and E on a Friday have chosen to do that to themselves.

You can not agree with it all you like. I can’t see it changing. It’s not the lecturers fault that fees still have to be paid. If fees aren’t paid either the uni goes bust or the govt has to bail out. The govt won’t want that to happen so will make the students pay.

I think most students are still getting some form of teaching. Our students have their normal timetable as well as twice weekly virtual drop in sessions. Dd is having online work set.....she does a very project heavy degree so wouldn’t normally have lectures. Any student who has been left high and dry with nothing should certainly complain. Although as it’s exam season if being left “high and dry” means that students have a couple of weeks of self directed revision and the exams Then that would most likely have happened anyway.

As an ex a&e nurse I’d disagree that most drunk people in a&e didn’t have underlying issues. I’d say that people who were there just because of poor judgement were in the minority. Perhaps it depends on the area and the service users located in that area?

I am hung up on the fact you've not acknowledged a single positive post in relation to academics. It's really pissed me off if I'm honest.

You've asked many of us specific, direct questions about our views and actions in relation to our roles and how we support students. We've answered (mainly) in good grace. We've shared our views and our vast experiences. We've agreed with you that some students will not be having the full, positive experience. We've agreed that the student finance system is a mess but we've also explained that it's not always as simple or straightforward as it seems.

Not once have you acknowledged a response that shows any individual academic, or the profession as a whole, in a positive light. Instead you seem to be searching for your 'gotcha' moment... anything that allows you to confirm your biases ( and quite frankly, ignorant) views about an entire profession.

I'm sorry you feel that your daughter has had a poor experience. One of the reasons I do this job is because I believe in the transformative nature of Higher Education. It makes me sad that this year, many students may not experience that to the extent they should due to reasons out of all of our control. However, if you believe the actions of your daughter's university has contributed to that through negligence or poor practice then you absolutely should pursue that.

But you need to remember that your daughter's experience isn't necessarily representative of the whole sector and there are universities and university staff who are still doing great things. It wouldn't kill you to acknowledge that.

I did add paragraphs.......