University Fees for on-line Lectures

[Kastanien]

Latest this morning(sorry if it is already on here, I checked and could not see a thread)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

Just wondering how those of you with DC due to start (or return to Uni) in the Autumn feel about full tuition fees for on-line learning?
I feel there should be a reduction as the teaching is not the same on-line as face to face.

A lot of universities are in serious financial difficulty. When higher fees were introduced the assumption was that universities were greedy and money grabbing ( I was out delivering student finance talks at the time so heard this first hand)
The truth was, some universities lost over 90% of their funding. For many courses the 9k fee doesn't cover costs.
There was also the switch in the student mindset- they now view themselves as customers. This means universities had to invest in their campus and facilities and some borrowed heavily to do this.

The current situation is a financial disaster for the HE sector. I know of some universities who are already implementing pay cuts. This is only going to serve to further damage staff morale as contrary to popular belief your bog standard lecturer doesn't earn a huge salary - not when you consider the qualifications, experience and hours you're expected to work.

@SueEllenMishke I agree with you. The changes to funding have not served universities or students. It's not surprise that students now think of themselves as customers but the university sector was never designed that way. I'm sorry you've got such a bashing on here, none of these issues are your fault.

Thank you.....I'm stressed, tired and overworked so I'm taking it to heart a little too much!

Gogo - I think a lot about performing arts as my youngest is likely to pursue this route. I think we need you all more than ever and I am very much looking forward to seeing shows etc again. Providing music, drama, dance courses obvs can’t be taught the same and I really feel for the students. Let’s hope the situation improves soon.

Well, the meeting in parliament is going ahead today to look into the petition signed by 330,000 people, requesting a refund of fees and they've asked for students to report their experiences. Let's see what comes out of that.

I'm sorry you've got such a bashing on here, none of these issues are your fault

Thanks @heroku

Although some PP on this thread have painted me and others as uncaring monsters, nothing could be further from the truth. I've actually found the vitriol directed at individual academics on this thread, and the generalisation from individual DCs' experiences to wholesale condemnation of all universities and academic staff to be personally quite upsetting.

It'd be like blaming the actual ITU healthcare professionals for the failures in government policy over providing PPE etc.

I think there's been a lashing out by some parents to blame academics for the situation we all find ourselves in, through no fault of anybody!

The reality of what we are doing for 10-12 hours a day at the moment, in both supporting current students, working out how best to convert modules meant for face to face teaching & learning into mixed delivery for September, work out health & safety protocols to stop unnecessary transmission to vulnerable staff & students, work out how to deliver lab-based teaching (and I do a lot of it in my humanities discipline - it's not just a STEM thing) - well, to be basically treated as if we're flat out lying, and unempathetic monsters to boot, is unreasonable and bordering on hysterical.

Well, the meeting in parliament is going ahead today to look into the petition signed by 330,000 people, requesting a refund of fees and they've asked for students to report their experiences. Let's see what comes out of that

It is worth remembering that this is a standard response to any petition which gets over 100,000 signatures.

And that generally, only those unhappy with things will say so. People who are satisfied rarely set up or sign petitions to say they're satisfied! (viz. we rarely hear "good news" in news bulletin).

The basic resentment of fees in England is widespread, and pre-dates the temporary closure of physical universities (not the stopping of our work). It's been around ever since the government (not universities) decided to withdraw 90% of public funding for university teaching.

So unless that public funding is reinstated, it's unrealistic to remove tuition fees.

As I say, vote differently.

I have certainly not blamed academics particularly if they did not go on strike.

I do think in CV19 some people are getting money and getting paid (furlough money etc ) and others aren't and it is very unfair and some groups eg airlines are getting furlough money and some passengers not getting back deposits don't get any money from the state. So it is all riven with unfairness at the moment (as indeed is CV19 unfair on those who get it)

It is worth remembering that this is a standard response to any petition which gets over 100,000 signatures.

Yes thank you I know that. It's also worth remembering that the threshold was set at 100,000 so that only issues that were of sufficient magnitude were brought before committees. This petition has three times the required number. At the very least, the issues that students have will be discussed and maybe acted upon. It might also put to rest the opinion on here that only a small number of students have been adversely affected.

As I say, vote differently.

As I've said, I've never voted for a party that supports fees.

And for the record, I'm.not saying that all universities are behaving badly, nor that all academic staff are treating students badly.

My anger on this thread is with the posters who have sought to dismiss the very real experiences of a number of students. Just because your university is functioning well it doesn't mean all are and you are dismissing out of hand anyone who says that they, or their children, are being treated badly by a university.

We've all been adversely affected by the global pandemic.

From posts on here, apparently there are some universities that offer nothing at all, and some students who lost every single taught session for a full eight weeks, and that's a real shame.

Reading this thread, I can only be reassured and bolstered by the sensible, factual, and reasoned responses of lots of other academics, and also keep reminding myself of all the positive feedback I've had from students since the lockdown, and how appreciative they've been of the continued chance to discuss the subjects, get help with essays, and so on. Every online seminar ends in a much nicer way than normal seminars, with them all typing thanks and how nice it was to talk.

What I also have to remember is, the students who are posting these things are the very small minority who are attending and engaging, and that many have, sadly and frustratingly, checked out either through choice or in some cases because they don't have the wifi, or have other responsibilities due to the global pandemic that prevent them from engaging. It's really hard to address this at the moment, and it is a concern. I also know there will be many who just don't want to learn like this (with a significant overlap with the ones who never attended when the university was physically available to them) and resent the fact that it's all we can offer right now, want their money back, and would certainly sign a petition to get it.

But they are being offered the exact same things as the ones who are giving us lovely and appreciative feedback on what we've done, and who are producing excellent work with extended deadlines and a safety net.

Yes thank you I know that. It's also worth remembering that the threshold was set at 100,000 so that only issues that were of sufficient magnitude were brought before committees. This petition has three times the required number. At the very least, the issues that students have will be discussed and maybe acted upon. It might also put to rest the opinion on here that only a small number of students have been adversely affected

This such a complicated situation though. There is absolutely no way they will announce a sector wide refund in fees - unless they want to see the entire sector collapse.
Not all students have been adversely effected so this would have to be on an individual student or, at a push, cohort. Students would have to prove that the actions of a particular university had an adverse effect on their studies. There is already a system in place for this - there are a number of avenues a student can go down.....internal complaints, OIA, OfS and CMA.

CV19 some people are getting money and getting paid

Because we are working. How any ties do we have to say this?

Stop being so reasonable, @SueEllenMishke ! It doesn't fit with the narrative that universities are greedy uncaring places.

Stop being so reasonable, @SueEllenMishke ! It doesn't fit with the narrative that universities are greedy uncaring places

I do apologise....i'll revert back to my uncaring academic persona immediately!

Im a lecturer and i think there is a bit of a misunderstanding about online delivery, i have seen some comparisons with the OU which is not what my university (and i expect other unis) will be delivering next year.

An OU course will typically be online resources for the student to undertake on their own in their own time (i,.e. distance learning), there will be some live online sessions but these are perhaps once or twice a semester (per module|) and there may be some classes on OU campuses depending on the course.

We are currently discussing online delivery and this is likely to be online live lectures and tutorials with the same amount of timetabled contact hours as we have usually delivered, only difference being that rather then being in a classroom it is through an online platform (we are currently in discussions about buying specific platforms for teaching - we will not be just having zoom meetings or similar). I have run a few online tutorials since this all happened - these have involved having the students in one large session of around 20-30 students then putting them into smaller online break out rooms, i was able to drop in to each break out room, listen in on their discussions and ask questions. It was a very different experience to being in an actual classroom but there were some definite advantages.

In many ways i think online delivery may bring some much needed focus on teaching quality and some (not the majority) of lecturers who have not refreshed their materials for some time or not put much effort into their lessons will be much more exposed through online delivery and this could actually be a really good thing for the higher education sector.

TheMerrickBoy

Tbh though, students signed up for a physical university, they didn't sign up for an online facsimile. Maybe for some students the online version, no matter how good you have tried to make it, just isn't accessible to them? Why wouldn't they be right to feel disgruntled and yes, ask for a refund? If they can't access the online content that isn't their fault is it and they are missing out twofold - in monetary terms plus in their education.

I am in a Facebook group for parents with children in university but there are a couple of students on there. 1 student had to leave her university accommodation at the start of lockdown for financial reasons - she had a couple of jobs that were financially supporting her as her mum couldn't and she lost these because of lockdown. Her accommodation agreed to not charge last terms rent if she vacated immediately, which she did..She returned home but cannot access the internet or complete any of her work, access the online exams etc because she comes from a very low income family and they don't have a suitable internet connection and obviously no coffee shops etc are open for her to work from. She is now contemplating leaving university because she can't complete her second year and if she requests to re do the second year that will be another year of student loans that she amasses.

So, she'll likely be on a lecturer's radar as one of the ones you describe - not turning up.for online classes, not engaging etc but I'm.struggling to see why people in situations like hers shouldn't be given financial compensation to at least enable her to retake the year. I'd want to know what are universities doing to support students in situations like these?

ldown80

What I'm.hearing though is that there are two scenarios.

1. is what you, and others are describing - you are in the process of planning, developing, buying in packages for the future in order to.provide a better online provision - which is great. Hopefully future students will benefit.

2. if all of that is in the pipeline and is being planned what actually is happening now? If you didn't have that in place from March what was the quality of provision for this cohort of students?

Planning for the future is great but that doesn't account for the experience of current students.

They didn't sign up for an online replacement, no. Neither did I. I didn't sign up for a global pandemic either, but here we are.

Your friends' daughter is clearly in a position where she's going to need advice and support from the university about leaving/intercalating/resiting, and I hope she gets the help and advice she needs, and that she can retake the year, if that is what she wants.

So are you talking about students who don't want it to be online and would rather there was nothing on offer but had their money back because it's not what they wanted, or students who do want it but can't access it? These seem like two quite distinct situations.

SueEllenMishke

I don't think we can pre empt the conclusion. Maybe they will find that an across the board refund is due,maybe they'll make it on a case by case decision but simplify the process.

Seriously, what provision have universities made for students who can't take online exams because they don't have access to suitable IT equipment - either a computer or suitable internet access?

To answer your question from 11.49 @Hearhoovesthinkzebras, from my own experience only:

1. Part of what we're planning is not so much 'make it better because it's crap now' but 'make it appropriate to anticipated changes in September' which might mean some stuff is online and some isn't, depending what we're allowed. Some of the things we might address is stuff we've only found from actually doing it (eg, how do we manage a session where students are unable or unwilling to turn mics on? We couldn't really have known what this dynamic would be like before it started)

2. In March some insitutions 'pivoted' immediately, some took a pause and then put content in later weeks that would have happened on, say, the 18th March, so that will vary. What was different was probably that lots of people were rapidly converting the lecture they'd prepped to give in a theatre into something that could be recorded, and that takes longer and is more difficult when you're unfamiliar with the tech,. Part of what might be different in September is not so much what students get, but how long it takes to prep it and how difficult it is for lecturers to do it. As with everything, we all learn from experience.

Planning for the future is great but that doesn't account for the experience of current students
We planned as best we could for them too. They were the future once, just a slightly more immediate one. Unless you think we should have been planning for the pandemic last September, that's really not something I can see how we could have changed.

TheMerrickBoy

To be clear, the girl isn't a friend, she's a member of an online forum. In her case, she can't afford to re take the year if that involves another year of fees plus maintenance loan. She's already worked two jobs to support herself this year. She is saying that if all of that money is down the drain she just can't face doing it all again next year, having incurred thousands of pounds of student debt for this year with nothing to show. She is being penalised for being poor basically - they can't afford internet access at home so she cannot keep.up with her studies or take her exams.

Second point - I am referring to students who simply cannot access online studies for whatever reason - practical eg no computer, internet, caring responsibilities at home, or because they just do not work well under these conditions again for a variety of reasons. They are having to pay for something that maybe they can't even access or will be penalised because they can't sit exams online.

My sister phoned us last week in a panic. My nephew is due to sit his finals soon but her Virgin broadband keeps going down. Currently they've been offline for a week, a month ago it was three days, but virgin can't seem to sort it out. Obviously he will need internet access in order to take his exams. We're now going to have to break lockdown ( even though I'm.shielding) so that he can come and log onto our broadband in order to take his exams. Now, that has implications for my health but more importantly, what if he didn't have us nearby? It isn't his laziness, lack of planning or disengagement that is causing the issue.

if all of that is in the pipeline and is being planned what actually is happening now? If you didn't have that in place from March what was the quality of provision for this cohort of students?

A number of us have outlined exactly what we've done. My students have continued to have excellent provision and their feedback is testament to this.

I don't think we can pre empt the conclusion. Maybe they will find that an across the board refund is due,maybe they'll make it on a case by case decision but simplify the process
I would be very surprised if we have a situation where across the board refunds are given. It would cripple the sector. Universities would close down.....some elite, Russel group universities are in absolute financial dire straits and that would finish them off. No government would want to be responsible for closing those types of institutions. The only way it would work is if the government footed the bill for these refunds at no detriment to individual universities.

Seriously, what provision have universities made for students who can't take online exams because they don't have access to suitable IT equipment - either a computer or suitable internet access?
The short answer is yes - at my institution at least.

I know you want to find issues and you're trying to trip us up into admitting that we aren't supporting our students adequately. By all means keep digging....but with respect your experience and knowledge is limited and second hand.
This is my job, my livelihood and my passion - i take it seriously and I do a bloody good job.