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University Fees for on-line Lectures

999 replies

Kastanien · 04/05/2020 09:00

Latest this morning(sorry if it is already on here, I checked and could not see a thread)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

Just wondering how those of you with DC due to start (or return to Uni) in the Autumn feel about full tuition fees for on-line learning?
I feel there should be a reduction as the teaching is not the same on-line as face to face.

OP posts:
TreeHelp · 06/05/2020 21:18

And well done for getting a 2:1. That's not what she's been working towards though.

Gosh, I bet that puts you in your place Cat, you senior professor and leading researcher in your field, you Grin

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 06/05/2020 21:19

I get that many students are having a positive experience. The rest of the petition, and the discussion being held in parliament tomorrow, suggests however that many students aren't having a positive experience. You all insisting that your experience is the experience of every student simply isn't accurate.

SueEllenMishke · 06/05/2020 21:21

I certainly am. I've been told to prepare for a number of different scenarios....100% remote teaching, blended learning and business as usual.

Glower · 06/05/2020 21:21

There will be library support staff available. We have frontline staff available over email, instant chat, phone and social media, as well as subject specific librarians (e.g. for finding literature, referencing help) study support librarians (e.g. for academic writing, exams skills), IT support and a team dedicated to getting access to resources.

Access to resources is complicated - some texts just aren’t available online and some are extremely expensive and we can’t afford them due to budget cuts. Tutors now have to make sure all readings they set are available online, however we sadly no longer have the budget to satisfy every individual student’s purchase request.

This is a top 10 uni so I can’t speak for the extent of provision everywhere but it won’t be nothing. If any student can’t get any response from the library or doesn’t have adequate resources to complete assignments they should complain - this is their degree.

AgileLass · 06/05/2020 21:23

I certainly am. I've been told to prepare for a number of different scenarios....100% remote teaching, blended learning and business as usual.

Ditto. But I would point out that the Open Uni estimate that it takes at least 2 years to develop a high quality online programme. It’s just not possible to do that in a short period, even over a 17 week summer “break” Hmm

SueEllenMishke · 06/05/2020 21:24

And I'm doing this on top of all marking, supervising my MA dissertation students and my own research. I've also got 5 weeks of annual leave left to take

SueEllenMishke · 06/05/2020 21:27

FFS we've never said it's the experience of all students. I don't know how else to say that 🤷

RoyalAlfred · 06/05/2020 21:28

I am genuinely sorry you’re offended OP. And I am really sorry that your daughter has had a poor experience. A large number of students have received excellent care and support. It is possible to hold both experiences - even within the same institution. A lot university staff are seeing this from a 360 perspective too, having kids back at home and continuing with their studies.

I assume that your daughter has escalated this as directed by her institution (I expect this has been addressed earlier). There should be a clear and published process for raising concerns and/or complaints. She might speak with her course representative too for peer support.

The vast majority of us really care about our students.

SueEllenMishke · 06/05/2020 21:29

Ah yes that 17 week break we all get. ........🙄

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 06/05/2020 21:29

Glower

She has complained,but honestly what good will it do? She's finished now. The damage will have been done. Even if they refund a couple of thousand it won't erase negative impact on her studies so what's the point?

This cohort, whether it be GCSE,A level or graduate will.always be looked on differently.

Xenia · 06/05/2020 21:33

My son is finding his dissertation difficult with no access to the library and few books that he needs. I hope his supervisor will take account of those difficulties. His twin has to get a 2/1 for the course he starts in September too and I suspect both should get a 2/1 (based on marks throughout) but we shall see.

I would not be against some refunds from the university. I wasn't happy the end of July graduations were cancelled for example as clearly we will be out of lockdown by then so why cancel them rather than just wait to see? The university will not be paying my lost £700 hotel bill for that and the hotel won't refund it.

Miljea · 06/05/2020 21:39

See, this 'debate' hints at darker truths, IMO.

We, as a society, have been sold a pup in regard to university.

University, as an institution, subsumed everything else: Polys, HE colleges, professional colleges, under Blair.

We, the parents, especially of those whose DC would have been unlikely to have attended what was previously known as a uni, (you know, BBB at academic A level)- lapped it up.

The promoted colleges lapped it up. Uni!

Along came fees. And the commodification of HE. Unis became businesses, vying for students (we all know of kids with a D and an E at (modern) A level at uni).

Thus, long gone are the days of 'learning for learning's sake'/fostering enquiring minds and independent learning, for a huge majority of students. They just need that 2:1 to even get a job interview. A 2:1 which it made good business sense for the uni to suggest was pretty likely.

Unis (yes, not all, but the St Andrews discussion up thread was 'interesting') have debased themselves; we, the public, have gone along with the destruction of our FE institutions, our professional schools (think nursing, radiography); our actual, real apprenticeships, our on-the-job training with meaningful, nationally recognised night school professional qualifications.

Germany didn't do this, for example.

There has been an increasing case for a Great Reckoning in our HE provision (I mean, sorry to single a poster out, but a degree in jazz?); allied with a step change in industry not lazily demanding a degree in order to interview (and thus make the youngster pay for their own basic training).

It is hugely unfortunate if a catastrophe like Covid forces this change upon our society, but, frankly, something had to, as a Tory government was never going to bite that bullet, were they?

CatandtheFiddle · 06/05/2020 21:46

Gosh, I bet that puts you in your place Cat, you senior professor and leading researcher in your field, you

Yes, I know my place! Actually in my other undergrad degree in English Literature which I did alongside my main degree, I did get a First. And a PhD. And taught EngLit for about 15 years before I moved sideways to my main degree discipline.

I know about EngLit teaching at several of the best universities in the country (I’ve taught or examined in them). There is a very different story to tell from that which Hear tells.

Miljea · 06/05/2020 21:48

Hearhooves I understand your concerns about being 'looked at differently', but they won't be.

Can you tell me exactly which GCSE year suddenly cut coursework marks out of their final mark? Which year suddenly had untested, unpiloted 1-9 'we don't need experts' 😉 Maths and English GCSEs thrust on them?

(Even the year GCSEs morphed out of O levels and CSEs?)

I only know the former because both my DSs were 'guinea pigs' for those.

No one will remember, or challenge this year's out take at any level, really they won't- and, in fact, some might be lucky in that no institution is going to do a mass downgrade of this year's students, are they? That would shout 'we failed to prepare them'.

DS1 would have loved his predicted GCSE results of 5 years ago to his actual 😂

heroku · 06/05/2020 21:53

@Miljea I completely agree with everything you said. Since university I've taught myself loads of things through online courses and it's made me think a lot differently about further education in general. Many universities (such as the one I went to) pride themselves on their history but the reality is that it is a relic of a bygone age.

This wouldn't be such a big deal except for the fact that students are now coming into a highly uncertain job market with £30K+ of debt and limited employable skills. I think we're really letting young people down.

PickUpThePieces · 06/05/2020 22:02

Have just come back to this thread - it’s like Groundhog Day.
One thing is certain, higher education needs to change.

Going forward, if there are ever any future Open Days as we have known them, might I suggest withdrawing your labour from supporting the corporate style circus, instead of providing taster lecturers and sessions with all the bells and whistles which for many students, bear no resemblance to the actual university experience.

Anyway, I’m sitting here with a glass of wine reflecting on how relieved I am that I don’t still work in Intensive Care.
I think an academic said upthread something about keeping things in proportion/ perspective.
So that’s mine.

ListeningQuietly · 06/05/2020 22:07

Miljea
Your child and mine were in the same GCSE year
mine has been shafted in their final year of University as well

I want to be supportive of university staff
but the blinkered rudeness shown on this thread
only tells me that they will richly deserve the shakeup that is coming their way

titchy · 06/05/2020 22:11

I wasn't happy the end of July graduations were cancelled for example as clearly we will be out of lockdown by then so why cancel them rather than just wait to see?

FFS Xenia you cannot possibly say with any certainty that we will be out of lockdown in July - it's HIGHLY unlikely that large crowds of thousands of people will be able to congregate in the same room to enable any sort of graduation. Honestly are you in the same planet as the rest of us? You are aware of this whole pandemic thing yes?Hmm

SueEllenMishke · 06/05/2020 22:12

There have been some disgraceful comments on this thread. It's quite upsetting tbh.
I work fucking hard, I care about my students and go above and beyond to ensure they succeed but some posters are refusing to acknowledge any positive comments.

tinselvestsparklepants · 06/05/2020 22:28

People who think that academics get a long summer break are the same as people who think teachers finish work at 3.30. This summer I will be prepping two new units, prepping all my existing units as online courses just in case, refreshing the content of those, supervising a cohort of Masters students, continuing with a part time PhD I am obliged to take as well as doing a full time job, applying for research funding, providing additional pastoral care for international students stranded because of Covid, marking, trying to learn how best to teach online etc etc. It's hard work. I do my very best for my students.

AgileLass · 06/05/2020 22:37

There have been some disgraceful comments on this thread. It's quite upsetting tbh.

Yes, the poster blaming academics for student suicides was a complete disgrace Sad

PickUpThePieces · 06/05/2020 22:59

Agile, are those the comments that have been deleted?
I missed those.

You and others have dished out plenty of patronising, sarcastic and downright rude comments so, yes, there have been some disgraceful comments on this thread, for example the poster who equated pastoral care to nappy changing,

It took many pages of sincere posts from parents, a few students and some academics before there was any real balance or acknowledgement of how difficult the situation is for students as well as staff.

RoyalAlfred · 06/05/2020 22:59

I am really interested in the notion of greed too. As far as I am aware, most annual accounts are a matter of public record. See York here: www.york.ac.uk/media/staffhome/marketing/corporatepublications/Annual%20Report%20and%20Financial%20Statements%202018.pdf

Might be worth looking at individual institutions to see evidence of profiteering (honestly not sure what the baseline would be for this - I understand there will be a measure of financial sustainability for account sign-off). And possibly raise concerns with relevant VC office.

GoGoGone · 06/05/2020 23:02

I work at a small specialist performing arts institution so we actually provide those degrees in Jazz that someone was scoffing about upthread (4 year BMus, high contact hours, performance focused, many of our recent graduates are doing very well, you might even have heard of them 🙄)

We have been working our socks off to try and deliver programmes online as much as possible, however we will never be able to replicate much of the training we give, especially the performances that are such a key part of the course.

We are hoping to be back in September but it seems unlikely that performances will be allowed or that we will be able to teach with usual class density so students will inevitably miss out. And we are all so upset that our graduating students will miss their end of year shows/operas/symphony orchestra performances. We are a small community and we know our students really well.

We know that we can never deliver the same programme online. It just doesn't work. We are doing our best and trying to front load the academic content and move performance projects to the spring/summer in the hope some can go ahead but we don't know if that will be feasible.

We have lost significant income from refunding this terms accommodation fees. Students deferring, international students not being able to come etc will make next year extremely challenging. We operate on tiny margins as the fees don't cover half of the specialist training we offer and the government has repeatedly cut our supplements so we rely on international students to make up the difference. It's going to be a really tough year. Knowing that we could definitely open in September would be amazing. We are definitely not shying away from that. We really do want what's best for our students. But safeguarding their health is a part of that.

On a different note. One thing that I don't think has really been understood in this thread is the difference between online and remote learning. Proper online learning courses are designed as such, they have different modes of delivery,assessment, peer interaction etc. If you were designing a new online course in normal circumstances you would never just take an existing course and replicate it online, it just doesn't work. It's totally different to just teaching your existing course online. Most of the savings that you get from online learning comes from those different delivery methods and also from the fact that you can have a much higher staff student ratio than in person teaching that brings down the costs. Even then they have very high set up costs and usually take a good few years to become profitable.

Suddenly switching to online in the middle of a course is definitely not easier or cheaper! I know some of our teachers are taking 5 hours to record a one hour class because if the challenges of doing so at home.

RoyalAlfred · 06/05/2020 23:23

Page 9 is interesting from University of Exeter:

www.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/financeservices/pdfs/annualreport2018-2019.pdf

Many students do not understand (and why would they) that their courses cost more than the tuition fee. Especially STEM subjects. And there are some institutions with huge endowments, and others scrubbing around for pennies. Higher Education funding doesn’t really work for anybody at the moment.

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