University Fees for on-line Lectures

[Kastanien]

Latest this morning(sorry if it is already on here, I checked and could not see a thread)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

Just wondering how those of you with DC due to start (or return to Uni) in the Autumn feel about full tuition fees for on-line learning?
I feel there should be a reduction as the teaching is not the same on-line as face to face.

How is it her fault that she didn't benefit from a placement? Her course didn't offer placements.

As for buying food or drink - well, she wasn't on campus because her sessions were cancelled.

The fact remains however, that all of that stuff would have been available if the strikes hadn't happened and would have been provided if it hadn't been for lockdown. There is still a gap between what would have been provided and what has been provided.

I also don't think that a lack of Starbucks on campus would lower grades from a first to a 2:1. In other words, the real purpose of being at uni isn't dependent on campus catering, it is dependent on tuition though.

I would really like to know what university she was attending to have it that bad.

Bit we've all acknowledged that it's not been an ideal year. We've explained what we are doing to assist students at our universities to ensure they aren't disadvantaged and have said that those who have found their institutions lacking in any way should complain.
What more do you want from us?

You on the other hand are refusing to acknowledge any positive action from a university or academic.

Of course not all students benefit from all services but that's just how it works.
So she didn't benefit from placement support but that doesn't entitle here to a discount.
There was nothing stopping your daughter attending university while the strikes were taking place. She could have accessed the library, face to face careers support, used catering facilities etc......it was her choice not to.

She most certainly benefited from course admin support - we couldn't run courses without them.
She most certainly benefited from careers and employability support.
She has access to the library during the strikes and online content and staff support during lockdown.

where students don't achieve the results they were on track to achieve, because of situations beyond their control

Under the "no detriment" mitigations most UK universities have set up, this will not be the case. If she was on track for a certain degree class, it is highly unlikely she won't achieve that. If she has worked steadily and satisfactorily over her last 3 years.

But over 30 years I've been teaching, I've noted a tendency for students to think "In the next assessment I'll achieve what I really deserve" - or "I'll do better in the final exam" - I even had a parent complain about the grade averaging we had to do for their DC because illness stopped that student from being able to complete their final Honours project. The student was a middle of the grade 2, ii - there was no way that in one single assessment, they were going to suddenly achieve a 1st Class Hons degree.

So I hope your DD does achieve the grades she's been working at all along - most universities are ensuring that this is the case - that students suffer "no detriment" for any work submitted after 15 March.

No one wants loss of life for goodness sake. But being slow to reopen will lead to job losses for campus non teaching staff for a start. The focus should be on how to open as safely as possible not a flat ‘won’t do it’ which seems to come across here

Trust me no university will be slow to reopen - we're chomping at the bloody bit desperate to reopen.

There is no 'flat won't do it' at all. We're not bloody allowed - and probably won't be allowed this Autumn either. And there's fuck all we can do about it. Some posters seem to be under the impression we can decide whether or not to reopen. We can't - there's this thing called a lockdown, and social distancing and you know, law and regulations telling us what we can and can't do.

I get it. It's really really tough for our students, and young people generally. My dcs included. We're doing the best we can though to make sure students can continue and not be knocked off whatever pathway they're on - that's priority. I'm sorry if some students' experiences have been poor, really. But for the vast majority, their experience is as good as it can be given the spectacularly awful circumstances.

But during the strikes she had no tuition, no on line substitutes, no academic support.

During lockdown, because of the time between it happening and her course basically ending there hasn't been good provision set up. They had nothing, at all, for the entire first week while they prepared for going on line, apparently. Then provision for her course was access to last year's lectures. Whoopy doo. They extended the deadlines for her four essays by two weeks. That was it.

What library staff support is available during lockdown? She has struggled massively with accessing texts that she needed to complete her work. Some were available via the library on line but certainly not all.

As for well being services still being available - that's hilarious. She has stayed at uni so I told her to contact well being to ask what support or services would be available - for off site students the answer was "nothing".

CatandtheFiddle

First and second year she averaged a first.

Three essays that she had marked prior to March one was a first and two were 2:1 (missed a first by two marks in one essay and three in the other).

Remaining five essays were submitted after March, so who knows how those grades average out. I think you could reasonably argue that had she received a full allocation of tuition before Christmas that she likely would have made up those 5 dropped marks.

No idea how well she'll do in these essays. Two modules she had no tuition for at all so she's not holding her breath that she'll achieve firsts.

Either your daughter's university is spectacularly shit or she has chosen not to access the support available.
If it's the former then she really needs to complain because this needs addressing.

At my university and my husband's all support services are operational and available to all students.

With regards library, her school/faculty should have librarians available to support students and there a usually academic skills tutors.

You know, I'd really like to know the other side of Hears DD's provision. First hand. I think there's a whole other story.

For a start, not all academics were on strike at all universities and not all academics took strike action in on all of the strike days for the whole of 8 weeks. I don't believe that every single member of the academic staff was not available for the whole 8 weeks you cite. I do not believe that there was NO personal tutoring and/or office hours offered before & after the strike. Your DD may not have taken up the opportunities available.

At the moment, at my place, our librarians are all working flat out from home on phones & email, advising students. Sometimes students have not used the library all year, but this is panic time. And if students desperately need a text, our librarians are going in to the library - with a security guard (none of us is allowed to enter campus unless we're authorised by security & the Registrar and then only for COVD-related research) to get the hard copy and scan portions needed.

And I imagine this is the case all over the country.

But you keep on grumbling that university staff are not breaking the law at the moment. Maybe - in the FOUR days we had to organise moving the remaining teaching on line for hundreds of students, last years' lectures were thought to be the best content available in the time to offer to students. What is wrong with last year's lectures? Presumably they were OK for last year's students? I give the same lectures in one course over several years. Each year they're tweaked, and I change bits of my slides, to try to tighten & clarify, but essentially, what I want to say to the students in a lecture which provides an overview to frame, guide, and scaffold their independent engagement with the topics I'm teaching, stays pretty much the same for the 3 to 4 years I'll teach any modules, before retiring or changing it completely.

That is normal, not bad practice.

Hears, it's clear that you think your DD has had a bad deal, but you have blown this entirely out of proportion by using your second-hand knowledge of one undergrad's experience into a fragile structure of overblown generalisations about the corruption of the whole of the UK's HE system.

Your DD's education is heavily subsidised by overseas students. They value what we offer them. Clearly you don't. You probably shouldn't have sent your DD to such a terrible (by your accounts) university, and you are worryingly overinvested in it now. How does your DD feel, hearing her own mother rubbishing her degree?

Your logic is increasingly that of a spoilt child. "I want, I want ... the impossible"

I think you could reasonably argue that had she received a full allocation of tuition before Christmas that she likely would have made up those 5 dropped marks

You might say that (and I expected you would), but as I said, a lot of students use external factors to explain a drop in marks. Sometimes, work just doesn't fly as well as other pieces. Sometimes, they just get it wrong, although a 65% is a very good mark. But we do make a distinct difference between work at 70% and work at 65% - and at 3rd year level, that is as much about the student's developing grasp of independent thinking as it is about specific hours of face to face teaching. Sometimes, students fly in 2nd year, but find 3rd year more of a challenge - the work does get harder and expectations by examiners are higher. And a greater level of independence is expected - the dissertation is the pinnacle of this - it is not taught as such, it is supervised. I finished all my final year supervisions in the week before lockdown, so they were not affected. Those who actually made appointments for supervisions, that is.

These are things that are hard to hear for parents. You know only about the experience of your own DC and at second-hand.Academics encounter these patterns & concerns every single year we teach.

And most graduates get where they want to go.Maybe not by the route they expect or plan. And I'm not sure I was ever asked my degree classification in the workplace. I'm a senior professor & a leading researcher in my field. I graduated with a 2, i. It's not a death sentence.

I think it’s your daughters University. This is more the norm:

www.facebook.com/swanseauniversity/videos/536344496999642/

Yes, RoyalAlfred this is pretty much the sort of thing my VC has been saying. That is the norm.

Same as mine too. I've been really impressed with how my university has handed this. The pastoral care for staff and students has been excellent.

CatandtheFiddle

Why is it at all relevant that not all universities participated in both strikes? Her lecturers did. My nephew was similarly affected (they aren't at the same university).

She, and her friends approached tutors for support around the strikes and were refused because that was against the strike action. They complained about it, as did the student union.

Last year's lectures may well have been fine, for last year, in the landscape that existed last year. They clearly aren't enough to make up for the four weeks missed tuition due to the strike and then combined with lockdown.

As for I shouldn't have sent her to a rubbish uni - I didn't send her anywhere. It was her choice to go there, not mine, and we haven't thought it a rubbish uni until this year. This year however, what she has received has indeed been rubbish. As for how does she feel about what I'm saying - she doesn't know my views on it. She complains to me about what is happening and I listen.

Sometimes, they just get it wrong, although a 65% is a very good mark.

She hasn't got 65% though. As I said, in one essay she missed by two marks and in the other by three. So, 68% in one and 67% in the other. The third was a first.

And you might not have been asked for your degree classification but some doors will be closed to you if you don't get a high enough degree. My son did a PGCE after uni - he had to have at least a 2:1 for that, so had he got a 2:2 it would have stopped him from becoming a teacher.

She's an English lit student so she has needed full texts, not just some pages scanned. I have no idea if librarians would go into the library to get copies of texts to loan her. I don't know if she's even asked.

Anyway, it's very clear that you think a scenic staff are above reproach and are simultaneously indispensable to students academic progress and also entirely surplus to requirements, which is quite a feat. And we'll done for getting a 2:1. That's not what she's been working towards though.

The pastoral care for staff and students has been excellent.

What pastoral care? I've seen her email from well being. She emailed to say that she wasn't going home (because I'm shielding and she hadn't quarantined before lockdown was announced) and was there any support available. They replied that their advice to all students was to return home, if at all possible, and that support would be given to any remaining in halls - how is that providing pastoral support? Maybe you don't actually know the level of support available to your students. You only know what the institution is claiming to provide. Do you know how that is actually translating in practice?

Why is it at all relevant that not all universities participated in both strikes?

Not relevant at all. ALL that matters is your child. And if their experience has been poor and lockdown not broken illegally then all of us must share responsibility for that and fall upon our swords forthwith. The relatively positive experience of the vast majority of students means absolutely nothing if we are not worthy of the adoration of hear's dd. For that we are truly sorry and I for one will be handing in my notice tomorrow because we have failed this poor poor student and clearly haven't got a clue.

How do we know what the vast majority of students have experienced? I've not heard of anyone having the great supportive experience which all of you appear to be claiming and that is across a wide range of universities from different parts of the country.

hear well obviously I'm talking about my university. I can't comment on your daughter's university.

I know that support has been excellent at my university....I work there. I'm speaking to students daily and they are feeding this back to me. I'm working with support staff and witnessing the work they are doing. I've seen the policies that have been implemented to support students.
Also, the support for staff has been fantastic too.

Why are you determined to ignore what everyone is saying?

Interestingly, I've just seen this on the petitions page from a petition circulated by my DD

On Thursday 7 May, the Petitions Committee is holding two formal oral evidence sessions on coronavirus. The second of these will look at the impact on students and universities, prompted by a petition you signed. The evidence sessions form part of the Committee’s ongoing inquiry into COVID-19.

*Watch the session live from around 3.30pm on Thursday:

In advance of the sessions, the Petitions Committee asked those who has signed the petitions to share their experiences. The Committee is very grateful to all those who shared their views.

The session on the impact of coronavirus on students and universities will run from 15:30-16:30. It follows a petition signed by over 330,000 people which calls for universities to reimburse all students of this year’s fees due to strikes and COVID-19.

So despite all of your snide and sarcastic comments, this isn't a one off, only affecting my DD.

Nobody said your dd was the only student impacted. What were saying is it isn't the experience of all students.

And I never claimed that it was the experience of all students. I objected to you, and other posters, claiming that what you are doing is what all universities are doing.

Let's see what the result of the working party is. Clearly it's more than just a handful of disgruntled students that have prompted the above.

You have been very reluctant to acknowledge that any academic or university is doing anything positive though.
That's what's we've all found frustrating.

hear I'm having a very supportive experience as a student. Obviously I'm not at every university, but from the sounds of it I'm at a different uni to everyone else (or nearly - can't tell for sure) on this thread, so my experience is to be added to the spectrum of experiences. I'm sorry your dd is having a bad time. That doesn't mean every student is having a bad time, and it doesn't mean that all the academics on this thread are lying. The warden of my college, for example, is I'm sure fully aware of pastoral support, as it is her who is flagging it up to us along with other services and friendly messages in regular email updates.

Can I ask how many uni teachers/lecturers on here work for unis that are putting plans in place to professionally produce quality online content over the traditional 13-17 week summer break in order to hit the ground, running, in late September?

Especially those who've acknowledged that, through no fault of their own, the hastily scrambled together content that constituted a fair bit of teaching this term wasn't really good enough?....