University Fees for on-line Lectures

[Kastanien]

Latest this morning(sorry if it is already on here, I checked and could not see a thread)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

Just wondering how those of you with DC due to start (or return to Uni) in the Autumn feel about full tuition fees for on-line learning?
I feel there should be a reduction as the teaching is not the same on-line as face to face.

Fantastic post CatandtheFiddle

I guess more of us on here are in the humanities, from the replies, and are speaking from our own experience. Labs and practicals are obviously not so easy to replace, but then, students doing those courses pay the same fees as humanities students whose provision is much cheaper, and so effectively subsidise those students who needs labs etc all the time anyway. So if the science students, for example, got a discount and History students didn't, that would obviously bring about its own issues in terms of fairness and parity,

As for housing: that's just genuinely not something we have any power over. We're not the landlords.

Its very disheartening to see my DD work extremely hard on a 3000 word presentation, only to be told its now a script on a poster and is 1500 words.
Then questions on the hows and whys go unanswered and directed to a FAQ's that doesn't cover the question.

...and thats before being told that she has to decide to volunteer to work in a (non specific) NHS setting for up to 60% of her time Or not but no clue as to what happens to her course if she doesn't.......
.and now nothing, its like they never sent out the email.... she is just left in limbo.

Jasjas yeah that must be frustrating, It would be good if they'd been able to offer the 1500 word assessment as an option, rather than just replacing the other, maybe? Changes in deadline and assessment type, while designed to make sure nobody's left behind or disadvantaged, do have the risk of being inadvertently unfair on well-organised students who already had the work in hand.

We've addressed the comments we can.

I can't tell you how labs will work - I teach an education based subject.

I'm working on placements but I'm waiting for a steer from my professional body as they stipulate the placement hours.

My university doesn't own accommodation so I can't comment on that.

We don't even know what is going to happen in September, our VCs don't know.....so how can we tell you? All we can do is tell you the various scenarios that we're planning for.

Merrick
In many cases the Universities are the landlords

• 51 week hall lets are a rip off that is indefensible.
• above inflation increases in hall fees on rooms that have been barely refurbished in 25 years is indefensible if Hall fees were more sensible, rental price inflation would be tamed
• market rent beer in University facilities that pay no rent is indefensible

Universities are just businesses now and may need to be treated as such

Students who sign up for a course where the UCAS description states labs / practicals / fieldwork
are suffering breach of contract if it does not

Universities are just businesses now
and may need to be treated as such

Looking forward to the bailout then!

Merick
THey may well get a bail out
but they will not like the strings

Universities might manage halls for first years, but when I say 'we' I mean the people who are posting on this thread. And I was thinking more about people talking about second and third year students, but you're right, the halls situation is not good and I hope there'll be some recompense for that later (though this is not about tuition fees). Most first years I know got their rent back if they moved all their stuff out in March, but I realise that's not always the case.

So much to say about breach of contract in so many ways, but no time right now.

Merrick so what?

I was talking to Google about not having made a decision on housing and why 🙄

As for housing: that's just genuinely not something we have any power over. We're not the landlords.

In the case I was talking about the halls are owned and administered by the uni.

But not all universities own accommodation....not even halls

But not all universities own accommodation....not even halls again so what?

We're talking about the ones that do.

But pps are asking why we aren't addressing those issues. The answer is - we can't.

I'm thinking that a current model off a university is an unsustainable business.
It relies on the customers, students, wanting to leave home and therefore having to pay extortionate expenses, fees and living, for what in some cases ends up as a McDonalds degree.
I know of some students who are having a three year holiday in 'luxury student accommodation' doing very little work and then finding that the piece of paper counts for nought.
And all at the expense of the public purse and the bank of Mum and Dad.
With a large debt to blight their earning years.
The Fat Cats who run the universities are paying themselves HUGE salaries, while getting the teaching done on short term contracts.

Perhaps the thinking student has to get real and do a cost benefit analysis.
Is the degree I am doing going to get enable me to earn a better salary than I would have got if I hadn't gone to uni?
Will it be accepted as a worthwhile attainment?
Are there really the jobs available in what I am studying
Just some thoughts.

Some unis make more money from accom than fees - it will be a factor for some

Of course we recognise many academics/ universities are working incredibly hard under the circumstances but if the end result is still poor for many students, then they are actually allowed to voice their opinion and be heard.
As are parents.

Again, I go back to the fact that our young people are missing out on ALL that university has to offer them.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of the strike action, I’m afraid that it used up a certain amount of goodwill towards teaching staff.

There may well be a cohort of students who are frustrating, lazy, disengaged with helicopter parents but it is not a fair generalisation.
The young folk I know are ambitious, determined and hardworking.
The organisation I’m involved with has a number of students on a voluntary basis.
They aren’t at a fancy pants university, most are first in their family to go on to higher education and each and every one of them is impressive, motivated and just great to be around.

As several of you have suggested that students go through the proper channels should they wish to complain, I do hope the academic staff find it similarly easy to complain to the powers that be about their own dissatisfaction.

It's weird having a conversation with someone who keeps saying 'so what' - bit like being 13 again!

I was responding to the point that academics on this thread should engage with those points, and I was trying to say that's not necessarily something we, here, can engage with.

Also, as I explained earlier people should not compare the current experience with what will take place in September. We are all working on adapting content and courses to make remote delivery work if needed.

So as of September the students will get a much better experience. What about this year's students who have now paid £6000 odd since January for what? My DD went back to uni mid January. They had reading week in February and then into strike action, then into lockdown. Her last face to face teaching was in the first half of February, no teaching or support during the four week strike and barely anything at all during lockdown. What exactly has she received for her£6000 fees this year? Of course, before Christmas there were strikes so she didn't have a full term then either. This is her final year. How can that level of disruption not affected her grade? That's her entire degree affected detrimentally by things outside of her control.

The kicker for her is that she doesn't have final exams to sit. Hers assessments have continued as normal this year - multiple 8000 + word essays to complete. This term she is completing essays for modules that she has received no tuition on. However, exams that other students are sitting will be open book with at least 24 hours to complete them (some allowing 48 hours to complete).

COVID19 isn't the fault of the universities. The disruption due to the strike action and the lack of decent support and tuition during lockdown is the fault of universities. If I had paid for any other service but did not receive what I had paid for I would be entitled to a refund.

Of course we recognise many academics/ universities are working incredibly hard under the circumstances but if the end result is still poor for many students, then they are actually allowed to voice their opinion and be heard
Yep, I expect we'll get a bashing in the NSS, and that'll be very difficult.
As are parents
Anyone can voice anything, but it's the students' voices that matter here, not their parents', in terms of feedback and the responsibility we have to them. Our working relationship is with the students, not their parents.

Again, I go back to the fact that our young people are missing out on ALL that university has to offer them
I know, it's sad. We're all missing out on so much right now. With the pandemic and everything.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of the strike action, I’m afraid that it used up a certain amount of goodwill towards teaching staff
I agree, that's how it's played out - I had reservations about the strike and my uni wasn't striking - but if yours was (as my dd's was) it's worth pointing out a) it wasn't just lecturers who were on strike (non-teaching staff get rightly annoyed about the term 'lecturers' strike) b) it's the govt and the VCs they should be angry with, not their tutors.

Just looked at a OU fees.
at £3100 or so for a 30 point year. Doable.
Degree in 6 years. Ok by the 24 not 21
Well thought of in industry as it shows resolution and you can earn at the same time, gaining experience and adulthood.

To all the people saying 'why should unis charge less?' The answer is 'because they do!'

Any uni that offers a course distance learning and face to face learning charge less for the distance learning option. And yet now students are getting the distance learning for the face to face price.

I am currently studying a professional post graduate qualification with a university. I paid for the face to face option (£1000 more than the distance learning option). I am now spending 1 third of the course being taught distance and it is so much harder!

It's all really frustrating, reading this thread it seems that the response from different universities is quite varied (and it seems like mine is really good in comparison to some), but I also know that not all students are utilising what is being offered.

I have students who simply haven't read the detailed emails I have sent telling them how to get the help they have asked for, instead they just email another member of staff to complain that they are not being supported. If you can it might be worth running through the communication you/your kids have had again. Check out the websites etc. Our FAQs for example are kept more up to date than any academic would be.

It's a shit situation and no, we don't know what we are going to do next term yet. I run a lab based degree and we are going to have to chop the timetable up, double and triple run labs to maintain social distancing. We are also going to have to cut some labs and replace them with interactive online resources (which is v v difficult and time consuming). It may be that all labs will run after Christmas and we pray we can get back them.

Meetings are happening in the next few weeks to figure some of this out, we are going to have to have lots of different plans for lots of different scenarios.

Seriously though, if anyone has a brilliant idea of how to run a lab based degree next year I am all ears!

Universities need to change. I had a fantastic time at university and I'm really glad I went but none of this makes any sense anymore. Nine grand for a year of (potentially online) lectures? Many Harvard and MIT lecture series are available free online and of much better quality than the lectures I went to. And then a few essays marked with exams at the end?

Young people are being ripped off and they're stuck between a rock and a hard place because if they don't go through the system they won't get the stamp on the CV that opens up graduate jobs.

I would love to see a new swathe of forward thinking, flexible alternatives that allow you to pick and choose what and when you study with a mixture of online/offline. Unfortunately until those exist young people will continue to get shafted.

This is no disrespect to academics - I have many friends who are academics and the research they do is incredibly valuable. But it's not right that young people are subsidising all this through extortionate fees.

I do hope the academic staff find it similarly easy to complain to the powers that be about their own dissatisfaction.

Oh we complain, regularly, voice our long-standing dissatisfaction in staff surveys and the like, try to resolve issues in national pay and conditions bargaining - things rarely change. Hence strike action (about which, like other PPs, I had serious reservations).