University Fees for on-line Lectures

[Kastanien]

Latest this morning(sorry if it is already on here, I checked and could not see a thread)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

Just wondering how those of you with DC due to start (or return to Uni) in the Autumn feel about full tuition fees for on-line learning?
I feel there should be a reduction as the teaching is not the same on-line as face to face.

On the September 2020 private rents (for year 2 and 3) (my dates were all over the place on my first post above) but that is what I meant (for which students and parent guarantors signed up to in Dec 2019 in places like bristol.....

So the whole house rent (say 7 - 8 tenants like in many of these houses) for the year is about £38k. Each parent who guaranteed is on the hook for the whole £38k and plenty of even middle class parents will be bankrupt due to no furlough and many others falling through the cracks so you might well find one parent obliged to pay the £38k.

If the 7 students are all arts ones and will have on line classes only I afgree that some may choose to go to university for a term or two with no lessons, no lectures, no seminars, no social events, no clubs, no hobbies, just sitting in the student house getting drunk every day but I doubt many would want to do that and their parents may not want them too either and I am not even sure the state will recommend they make those moves en masse in September or October.

I agree they probably could technically because either lock down will be over or it allows "moving house" anyway in the regs.

Someone mentioned forece majeure above. I am afraid in this kind of case that will not apply. It is not implied into contracts in English law so it is a matter of what the tenancy says and I am sure no tenancy contract will allow any kind of get out for students. That just leaves the law of "frustration" which will not apply here not least because they could still go into the house and sleep there although I suppose someone might want to litigate a test case on it. It is very hard in law successfully to plead frustration. So our poor parent in the house where the other 6 parents are bankrupt is still on the hook for £38k annual rent they guaranteed for the whole house. Perhaps if the universities are not required by law to close then the parents who might be losing rent eg £5k each parent might want to get their student children to sue the university for the rent payment the loss of which is attributable to the university taking a decision it was not forced to do by law the result of which decision is that huge loss of after tax income for the parent.

How dare we strike for our rights and livelihoods? Let's ban all industrial action for every sector NOW.

hear but not all universities or academics took strike action. I really do have sympathy for those students who have been hit by both but that's by no means all students.

Focussing on the current situation, asking for a refund of fees seems, to me, to be acting on the assumption that students aren't getting their university education. That's simply not the case. Some departments/universities may be failing their students and if they are then students ( not parents) should be encouraged to complain.
However, most students are still getting their university education it just looks different. Students and staff need to adapt to this new situation. They still have access to the library ( online) , the careers service, well being, the SU etc.
Academics are working hard to prepare lectures, seminars and assessments. We're still marking work and providing more pastoral support than ever.

Wait, why are universities liable to be sued for private rents?

The universities didn’t force students to go home - indeed some of my students have stayed in their rental accommodation (both on and off campus).

Many Harvard and MIT lecture series are available free online and of much better quality than the lectures I went to. And then a few essays marked with exams at the end

Oh, Marking! It's a piece of cake! And devising readings, making content relevant to to any professional qualification, crafting tutorial plans ... do it over my cornflakes which are drenched in my morning whisky. Jesus.

Merrick 'so what' is a more succinct way of asking so what's your point?

There's nothing wrong with using that phrase but if you want to start on the name calling you know I'm all in.

On-line learning is just an OU course and they don't charge 9250 do they?

Yes, they do.

extortionate fees

????? I think you'll find that elsewhere in the world, £9k pa is seen as very very good value. Cheap, even.

Agile, I don't think that would be an easy case but looking at Sept 2020 rents ( I wasn't really referring to this term) - if the state says yes lockdown is over and universities can open and university X decides not to allow most students back nevertheless in an abundance of caution and a parent is on the hook for £38k for the whole rent in a 7 person house from September 2020 then who we think should pay that rent?

Do we think the 7 students should be forced back to a university which is not open to study in an old scrappy house rather than parents' large detached houses which have good wifi? just so they can get the benefit of the £38k annual rent? Even though the university library is closed and at their parents' house they have whole rooms available to study in and learn in in peace? What would they get out of being with their 6 friends stuck at home with nothing open, no library, nothing more than being at home? In fact everything worse than being at home. I agree the landlord is going to say - you can still live here, so tough, pay the £38k. The university is going to say - touch, you must pay the £38k, we don't want to open the library, we don't want to open the university, even though by law we may. So are we saying the parents who guaranteed the £38k who probably have not had a penny of state help in all this (as here - over £50k before tax profits sole trader so no state help of any kind) have to pay?
If the university is so concerned about lecturers catching covid 19 surely it is just as concerned about putting lots of 2nd and 3rd year students into cramped student houses from all over the country to study arts degrees on line in October?

Anyway interesting issues. May be I should take my legal practice into some of these covid 19 areas to ensure we can continue to buy food.

They are extortionate for what they get in return in some cases!

DS has very very technical modules. You can't self teach these they need to be taught. They have an international lecturer for one particular module with such an incomprehensible accent that the students cannot understand what he is saying. They have tried to complain about him but all fallen on deaf ears. This isn't even a sitting on the fence issue. He might as well be teaching in a foreign language!

as a mature student, i think the most frustrating thing is the lack of consistent communication.

We get spasmodic emails from the lectures and tutors but we don't get any whole cohort summary of "this is what is happening with your 1st year subjects" -or even a "we have discussed how the next few weeks will be today, emails from course heads out in next 24 hours"

As i am used to working and chasing people, I have emailed for updates.

Our exams start in 2 days time and they are still working out if they are going to count towards our degree or not! just keep saying they will get back to us asap.

As nothing is being emailed to the whole year group, you get people being told one thing in a tutorial run by the course leader and the rest of us have another tutor and don't get the same update. Luckily a student whatsapp group helps there.

We have just had intsructions for our 24 hour online exams - they suggest we create a word doc and add on info XYZ plus a disclaimer we need to copy from elsewhere. But why not just create that word doc for us all to use (like cover sheets we have for essay submission). If this was work, i would of course tell the admin person to create one doc for us all to use consistently, to save students time AND staff time tracking down details from those who forget. But i can't as I am just a student!

Yes, international staff do tend to be targeted by students.

Don’t worry though, Brexit will put an end to that, along with the UK’s position as a world leader in higher education

THey may well get a bail out
but they will not like the strings

Given that one of the strings of the non-bailout is to keep fees the same, neither will MN parents.

Xenia if the state says lockdown can end I guarantee you no university will decide not to allow students back. That's a stupid comment.

SueEllenMishke

I'm really not interested in what other universities are offering their students, basically because that doesn't benefit my DD. Her degree won't be improved because the university in another city is offering a better experience will it? Same as for strikes.

Every year that she's been at uni she's lost time because.of strike action. This, her final year,has been a farce.

Some of the library is available on line, not all. The other options - student wellbeing, careers, is via email. Hardly conducive to a conversation is it? She contacted student wellbeing to tell them that she would be staying in her house, off campus, and was there any support available to be told simply that no, university was supporting students on campus in halls, but not students in private housing.

So, what exactly is being provided? As for it not being anything to do with parents I agree. It isn't. So our parental income should not be taken into account when assessing student finance should it? Funny how parents are of primary concern when it comes to paying for things, but not when it comes to being allowed to voice an opinion. Is that because we might actually have the benefit of experience on our side and can recognise when people are being taken advantage of?

@xenia I do see them as having a better life in the student house. They can mix with that household - don’t have to socially distance, can go for walks etc, have meals together - so even if lectures are online I still think it is better for dd to go back and experience living independently.
Also while lectures may be online for the first term there may be a gradual opening of libraries and in small seminars there may be the ability to have them face to face with social distancing.
I am anticipating that she will return in the autumn term.

There is a different issue about parents who now can’t pay rent. That might now be the greater determiner in who will return

Most of the parent posters on this thread are hitting out at academic staff to vent their frustration at being powerless. It's understandable, but it's unreasonable.

The academic staff posting on this thread have been patient, reasonable, and are trying to explain what we and our institutions are trying to do. It's not perfect.

But would you prefer that we hadn't gone into lockdown? Your DC, you, or I may not have survived. To rail against what you see as the failings of universities under these circumstances is unreasonable.

Universities are like other institutions, organisations and businesses - like the government itself - we just don't know a lot of the answers to your questions.

And underneath it all, you don't like fees, full stop. Well, vote differently then.

I'm really not interested in what other universities are offering their students, basically because that doesn't benefit my DD

Oh, the joys of a caring compassionate society.

I wouldn’t say that all the academics on this thread have been patient or reasonable.
It’s certainly been enlightening.

Given that students were expected to support strike action or at the very least just put up with it ( in spite of the significant personal ramifications) I thought a bit of solidarity wouldn’t go amiss under the current circumstances.

If some of you can’t admit that students are getting a raw deal for many different reasons on an anonymous parenting forum, then I don’t hold out much hope.

And to suggest that we didn’t want universities to go into lockdown is puerile.
We get it. No one can say for certain what’s going to happen.

Oh, the joys of a caring compassionate society

Neoliberalism in action. But then, given the poster, I'm not surprised.

Oh, Marking! It's a piece of cake! And devising readings, making content relevant to to any professional qualification, crafting tutorial plans ... do it over my cornflakes which are drenched in my morning whisky. Jesus.

I never said it was a piece of cake, I'm just saying I don't think it's the best system for students. And there are many academics who will agree with this. One of my friends is a lecturer and says he feels bad for his students as they're paying so much for a degree which is potentially worth bugger all to them in today's job market.

CatandtheFiddle

What are you talking about? You've quoted me and passed comment about a caring society yet my comment (that you quoted) was in response to being told that whilst students in my dds position are being treated badly others are getting a much better deal so I should quit complaining. Your response makes no sense.

How much is the society that you are talking about caring about the students getting a raw deal here?

And underneath it all, you don't like fees, full stop. Well, vote differently then.

Have never, in my life, voted for any party that wanted to.introduce university fees.

At the end of the day students are consumers. They are paying for a service that they aren't receiving. Why doesn't contract law apply here?

googlepoodle

That only applies if all of the housemates return. Would you still think it best for your DD if she is the only housemate moving in because the others choose to stay at home until uni opens? That's the reality. My DD gas stayed in her house with one housemate. The others, plus all of her friends living in nearby houses went back home.

Personal attacks aren’t allowed on this site, brassbrass - stop calling me names