Attitudes changing?

[CathyandHeathcliff]

Has anybody noticed attitudes changing over the past few days?

It seems to have gone from Facebook comments on articles calling for a stricter lockdown and so on, to calling for lockdown to be lifted sooner rather than later, comments about the economy failing and weighing up the balance.

The80sweregreat, I don't think it is that simple. Not boasting but just want to explain, just before the lockdown we sold what had been MILs house. We didn't sell it when she died, one of our children loved the house and said they would live there and eventually buy it after uni. Well uni finished, new partner acquired and the decision is not to come back here so the house was sold and therefore I currently have a 6 figure sum sitting in the bank. I have a public sector pension plus my state pension, husband is the same. We live comfortably but easily save over £1,000 a month plus help our children/GC out. I'm not in favour of lockdown for a few more months, I accepted that because the government mismanaged things in early March we needed a lockdown to get numbers down but I definitely feel they need to be talking about how we get out of it, I don't mean everything lifted tomorrow but plans to incrementally reduce lockdown.

Maybe I am a one off but I think that is unlikely. I do agree the motivation for people with financial problems is much more pressing for very obvious reasons.

ComtesseDeSpair Since Easter I have noticed this in my part of London also. It looks like more people simply not caring about social distancing now that they feel the danger has passed for them. It seems like they either believe that it is not worth it or believe that they are the epicentre and people should move away from them, or they drastically underestimate what 2 m really is.

Plus, I have been abused often when I ask people politely to fall into single file on paths that just allow one person each side with 2 m in between with NO space either side of the path. It has happen numerous times now, and always men who kick off. I am an 'idiot' (always this). I should 'get a life' (to which I say I have one that I am trying to maintain), 'who do I think I am?', it goes on and on. I only ask in this one spot of the footpath. I say it is always men, but the women they are with (and always they are a couple holding hands) will sometimes yell at me too or at least nods along in agreeance.

But I have noticed lots of picnics (not just doing a long walk and having a rest and a bite, but I pass them and they are still there playing either in the shallows of the river with the adults in chairs set up on the bank when I come back 45 mins later). And more large groups (unless 10 young people are living in the same house...it seems unrealistic that they are the same household). For the record, I don't care if same family groups are sitting down on the grass together for a short break or a person is sitting on a bench. That isn't a worry for me.

And people don't distance once they are in the supermarket as much anymore either.

There has been a definite shift everywhere around here. It effects me because, the result is that I now don't go out and exercise anywhere near as often.

The lack of any information I think is causing a lot of people to give up. The not knowing how long this is going to go on for and how the exit plan may look is far more damaging mentally than having a clear plan even if it isn’t what we want to happen. The feeling we are being treated like children and not being told everything is not helping.

The80s I think that is an oversimplified view. Both DH and I are wfh - he was lucky to get a permanent role just before this all kicked off - we have a nice garden, near country walks and DS is not in a critical year at school - but I still want lockdown to be reviewed sooner rather than later.

Reasons are even though we're absolutely fine financially at the minute, I can see the value of my pension being eroded by high future inflation due to economic meltdown. Then at a lower level my DS 14 is putting on weight due to lack of exercise although we make him walk the dog - minor but important to us. I'd love to be able to at least wave to my parents from the car - we live an hour away - and get them some groceries.

Also despite being ok ourselves I am capable of seeing the impact of this on the less well paid and self employed. Selfishly I'd like my hairdresser and local restaurants to be in business when restrictions lessen.

So please don't try to make this into some binary rich versus poor decision, it's really not.

If your ok for money etc etc then of course you will be in favour of lockdown for a few more months. If your waiting for the government to pay you and have nothing with mounting bills then you won't be in favour. It's not rocket science, even with the best will in the world to stop the spread of this virus. Some would rather take their chances.

I don't think that's necessarily the case.

We are both working and comfortably off, saving more than normal and I do not want lockdown to go on indefinitely.

We are not impacted yet, but the Depression which is going to follow this will not be good for any of us.

So even though we are fine now, we most likely won't be long term.

We

I do hope attitudes are changing because I feel this is unsustainable.

I know I have a relatively strange attitude to death in that I have experienced a lot of traumatic deaths in my life and have a sharp sense of mortality and how quickly life can be changed on a dime. I know I could die today, I know my family could die today, and instead of making me hysterical, it gives me a peace to enjoy the moment and have gratitude for the life I have right now.

This virus isn't going anywhere, we don't have a cure or a vaccine. But the same goes for many hazards in life, this is not new. I could die crossing the road today, but does it make me campaign to ban all cars? There are hazards in life, every day death is lingering in the shadows. We spend an extraordinary amount of our time just trying not to die. Every day.

I don't see this as any different. We have to do what we can to not die - stay healthy, wash our hands, isolate if you have symptoms etc. But for the love of God, please let people assess their own risk and let us get on with life. If you want to shield, shield. And the govt should support people in doing that, but to have the entire population on total lock down indefinitely, it just isn't feasible. Or probably necessary - it still remains that most people are not at risk of death from this virus.

Why are other countries able to get going on this whilst we are still faffing about?!

Because the NHS can't organise a piss up in a brewery at the best of times.

Because the NHS can't organise a piss up in a brewery at the best of times

How dare you criticise the enforced National Religion??

Because the NHS can't organise a piss up in a brewery at the best of times.

I think you mean the Government, not the NHS. It is the Government that caused the NHS to be in dire straits in the first place, and the Government that won't piss or get of the pot and sort this mess out while people are losing their livelihood and homes. No-one has a clue what is going on and what to do because the Government have no idea what they are doing.

I don't see this as any different. We have to do what we can to not die - stay healthy, wash our hands, isolate if you have symptoms etc.

Trouble is you can't force everyone else to wash their hands and maintain good personal hygiene, can you? You can't force everyone else to self isolate if they have minor symptoms.

The moment you walk out of your front door, some arsehole could sneeze on you and that's you infected.

People can mitigate most other risks. You can actually look around you when crossing the road, wait for cars to stop at traffic lights, only cross at pelican crossings, etc etc - to reduce your risk of being hit to almost zero. It's VERY low risk that a random vehicle will mount the pavement and plough into you.

If we return to somewhere near normal, people will soon stop washing their hands, people will soon stop trying to catch coughs/sneezes, people will soon stop trying to keep 2 metres apart, and we'll be back to exponential growth.

It will actually end up MORE dangerous for the vulnerable, elderly, etc. At least at the moment, most people are complying, so if they go out to the shop, there are few people around and most people will comply with the 2m. When more people are out and about doing normal things, the elderly and vulnerable won't be safe anywhere except locked in their own homes, and even then, the people delivering supplies, medicines, doing home repairs, etc will be more likely to give them Covid because they're wandering out in public with everyone else again.

I'm getting more worried as people I know get ill, go to hospital or die. I know one man in his sixties who has died after weeks in hospital. Everyone else I know who has had it has been in their 20s and 30s - several too I'll to get out of bed for weeks, one hospitalised, one on a ventilator (the latter two now doing much better, but likely to be recovering for months).

I'm not scared I will die, as I'm 32 and healthy, but I am scared I'll be sick or hospitalised and unable to take care of my 7 month old properly. It's not just the death rate, it's the huge impact the disease has on people's health.

That's why I don't understand people saying "it's only a one percent death rate". Sure - but even people with "mild" cases can be too ill to function - mild just means they don't need to be hospitalised.

I don't think this level of lockdown can go on forever by any means - but the cases I've seen do make me feel more worried than I was a few weeks ago.

It is the Government that caused the NHS to be in dire straits in the first place

You're deluded if you think the NHS managers would have coped better in Blair/Brown years when they trebled the spending on NHS.

The govt/army have had to take over because NHS managers were clearly out of their depth.

Umm neither the government nor the army have 'taken over' the nhs! Why on earth would you think that?

Don't we do need some level of herd immunity in all of this? I was never quite sure why this became such a controversial thing.

We need the people who can cope with it to get it to stop a continual cycle of expodential rises where we worry about the capacity to cope.

I don't know how we do that, but I know that unless we do that, this WILL go on for years and years.

The virus isn’t going anywhere. I don’t see the point of extending lockdown tbh.

The shielding group can still shield without a lockdown. Official letters to give employers so they can still be furloughed or some such system. Shield children to not return to school.

Even when lockdown is eased if you want to stay home, you can nobody is going to come round and force you in to the coffee shop.

If they keep extending lockdown people are just going to start going out anyway, you can’t keep people away form loved ones and tell them they can’t go out. It’s not natural so they either ease lockdown or risk civil unrest.

I love the Facebook posts calling for army on the street. This is England, we are never going to end up with army on the street we just aren’t not here. Firstly I’m not sure we’d have the personal to even do that after years of cuts and we are a free country we don’t have soldiers with guns on the street eyeing Pam when she goes to Asda.

Because the NHS can't organise a piss up in a brewery at the best of times

The frontline staff are excellent but much of NHS management has been an utter shambles for decades. Procurement and distribution of PPE is only one part of that.

The army took over PPE distribution in many areas, making a huge difference.

The problem is, most people think bad stuff happens to someone else. So if they are not hearing about deaths in their area, they dont think covid exists in their area. Therefore they dont see why they should not be able to go to work etc.

I've definitely felt my attitude changing over the last week/two weeks - obviously I'm not being a risk taking idiot but for sure there is now a voice in my head going "it wouldn't be that bad to..."
We have potentially both not got jobs to go back to after furlough, planned house move closer to family not going ahead and my business is closed, probably not re-opening due to economy. No garden. Both very unlikely to die if we get it and don''t socialise much anyway. This time of year we'd usually be up a mountain in a tent or running along a beach.
Just on a personal, selfish level it feels like we've tanked the economy and the future of hundreds of thousands of people. Buying a house as a 20 something year old seems further away than it ever was :(
I KNOW that is a really selfish viewpoint and it's not making me break the rules but the truth is that voice is emerging in my head!

But tabbymunz perhaps the opposite is true, as in from talking to neighbours, friends and work colleagues I'd estimate that around 20% of the people I know have already had it. I say estimate, because of course it's impossible to get a test.

Out of these one neighbour was hospitalised but recovered quickly and the rest of us had unpleasant symptoms for a few weeks and now are back to normal. These are all people under 60 - I wouldn't be as blasé about my parents getting it as they are in their 80s and believe that the elderly and vulnerable will need to stay in for much longer unfortunately.

But I really can't get worked up by seeing small groups of teens out together as I did yesterday. To be honest for DS 14 physical and mental health if this goes on for much longer I will be encouraging him to meet his friends lockdown or no lockdown.

The shielding group can still shield without a lockdown. Official letters to give employers so they can still be furloughed or some such system. Shield children to not return to school.

Many "shielding" workers are key workers too. They're business owners too. They're managers/employers too. They're carers of children or aged parents or disabled. If a shielding business owner is locked behind closed doors, his business will fold and the staff made redundant. If a senior manager is shielding, who looks after their department? If a carer is shielding, who looks after their kids, parents, disabled spouse etc? It's not as easy as just "furloughing" such people - someone else has to do their work or run their businesses or provide care!

We need a better response for the shielding group than just to lock them behind closed doors for the next year or so! It's as if you want us to go back to the days of leper colonies - out of sight, out of mind!

Kazzyhoward agree they need to work out a strategy for shielding groups, but first priority has to be to get non shielding /vulnerable back out again.

"Buttabbymunzperhaps the opposite is true, as in from talking to neighbours, friends and work colleagues I'd estimate that around 20% of the people I know have already had it. I say estimate, because of course it's impossible to get a test."

I think it depends where you live. I only know of a couple of deaths in my area and I dont even know them. One was in his 70's, dont know about the other. From work I only know 1 person who has been confirmed as having it. I just think people expect it to be a bit like the plague (people dying everywhere), before they really believe it.

Kaazyhoward It’s not having them out of sight and mind

The shielding group are apparently the most vulnerable in our society so if lockdown eases after these few weeks, we can’t just say right fuck off out your no longer shielding can we now?

Of course they would need to continue to shield at least for a while yet. This virus is going nowhere so we can’t throw the most vulnerable group back out in public just yet

The priority has to be getting non vulnerable people back to some kind of normality for the economy and to avoid civil unrest. How we can protect the vulnerable back in to public with this virus comes after

@TabbyMumz - agree. Of my 150+ friends, relatives and colleagues I don’t know anybody who’s had Covid and only two who’ve had mild symptoms which might have been it, and they recovered in about a week.

Similarly, every other poster on MN seems to be in the shielding or very vulnerable groups and often has an OH and a child in one or the other as well. Assuming MN is at least somewhat proportionate with social demographics, I’ve been genuinely mind-blown at the level of underlying poor health this would suggest we have in the UK. In real life I don’t know or even know of a single person in either group and the only people I know who are self isolating are my own parents and friends’ parents who are over 70, simply because of age.

Yes, shielding and vulnerable may have to expect to be indoors for months to come, and some may eventually prefer to make their own decision about how vulnerable they really think they are. Pragmatically, those people who don’t have any domestic or social contact with anyone vulnerable - and as above, that’s everyone I know - can be expected to start things moving again.