Are we wanting immortality?

[MsHeffaPiglet]

It's sad that people in care homes have died.

Does it matter whether they died because of cornavirus, rather than a general infection, from a fall, from a stroke or a heart attack or just old age?

If you are 80, 85, 90 or 95, isn't waking up each day a blessing. Does someone of that age expect or want to live forever?

I understand that you want to spend the last moments with loved ones and that is the cruellest thing with coronavirus and the need to isolate from everyone.

However, I just don't understand the shock, horror at the fact that elderly people in care homes have been affected so much. Is it so surprising?

Actually I didn't say it wiped out only the care home. I understand that a lot of people think that's what's going on with covid 19 though. Unfortunately it isn't actually quite that neat and tidy.

And even if it did - none of that would change the fact that it's perfectly reasonable to find a lot of people dying that way genuinely shocking even if they're old.

Disease as a whole is universal, but a sudden pandemic is indeed much more in the category of a sudden disaster like an asteroid strike, or say a volcano erupting or a mountainside collapsing. Writing off some of the victims as not newsworthy, or worthy of people feeling shocked about, is callous, not pragmatic.

Eventually the covid 19 virus will be just another virus that will wipe out a few people every year and which old people will be more vulnerable to, but it's not there yet.

Yep @allplayedout school children are noisier than care home residents so deserve to die more. I'm sure the DM demographic would agree mainly!

I am not blase, I am accepting of the reality.

Quite frankly I do value my children's lives over that of my mother, my inlaws, even about my siblings and my own.

And yes, on hearing the news that this very specific asteroid hit a nursing home, I would almost certainly be grateful it wasn't a nursery/school.

It is evolutionary I think. We protect our young. When I think of my mother dying, my heart contracts and I feel very sad. When I think of my children dying it is a far more pronounced reaction something which I can't imagine ever recovering from. I did recover from my father's death. It was horrible, and I miss him and think of him often, but the sadness passed. I can't imagine that ever being the case with my children.

He had a 'good death' though, thank fuck for the doctrine of double effect eh?

I wouldn't mind getting old and then being wiped out by a random asteroid.

The media have covered this in a sensational way, causing people to be recoiling in horror and shock that lots of elderly care homes patients are dying, this should not be happening at all! This is barbaric.
In reality, death rates in care for the over 80's have not significantly altered nationwide. There is a huge overlap between rates of cv deaths versus the annual risk of dying in the elderly. Some "premature"deaths have been accelerated by months at most. (in care homes).

I think Op is reacting to people's out pouring of shock and horror or disbelief (on the news, social media) that vulnerable elderly are dying in care homes as if this could be prevented. Most residential care for very elderly dementia sufferers has been basic and pretty inhumane long before this pandemic.

It's very upsetting for those who have been unable to visit their relatives for several weeks before they died, especially when those relatives might not be able to fully understand why. Heartbreaking to wonder what they must have been feeling.

I think people are also shocked that care homes have been left without the support and resources they needed to protect mass avoidable deaths amongst both residents and staff. That's something we would rather not be part of our society surely. What values does it suggest? The circumstances are very important here.

I think many elderly people have a better quality of life than others realise. I know plenty of people in their 80s who until confined by this were very active, excellent social lives, financially secure, world travellers and enjoying their families and interests. I have relatives in their 90s still living independently, and until this going to clubs, groups, restaurants, enjoying family life. Many of these people are the absolute lynchpin of their families, and to those who love them every day counts. I know these are the lucky ones, I really do as I have seen it be otherwise too.

And yes, on hearing the news that this very specific asteroid hit a nursing home, I would almost certainly be grateful it wasn't a nursery/school.

My example said nothing about comparing a care home being hit to a school being hit. Just that it's perfectly reasonable and appropriate to be shocked at the fact that lots of people have died, even if they're old. And surely it is perfectly reasonable and appropriate to be shocked at that? By all means feel less sad personally if you like - but why have a go at other people for expressing shock or sadness, and imply they are all deluded about what death is like? What is the point?

Prevent not protect, sorry

Yep @allplayedout school children are noisier than care home residents so deserve to die more. I'm sure the DM demographic would agree mainly!

That was a joke but no I wouldn't think thank god it wasn't a nursery. How far do we take this attitude? Is it better for this hypothetical asteroid to hit a high school than a nursery school because they've lived longer? I do worry about us prioritising quantity of life over quality(regardless of age) and I agree that a loved one dying very young is even sadder than losing an elderly person, but it's clear from this thread that many seem to think that the elderly have little to no value.

It is evolutionary I think. We protect our young. When I think of my mother dying, my heart contracts and I feel very sad. When I think of my children dying it is a far more pronounced reaction something which I can't imagine ever recovering from. I did recover from my father's death. It was horrible, and I miss him and think of him often, but the sadness passed. I can't imagine that ever being the case with my children.

Well of course you do. They're "your" children. It's perfectly natural I agree but personally I'd be far more devastated by the death of one of " my" family members than by the death of some random child I don't know.

I agree mostly with the OP. Lots of people are going to die prematurely because of postponement of cancer treatment and ambulances are taking hours to get to heart attack victims.

I have already thought I dont want to linger on in a care home, 65 and thats me out of here I hope, I witnessed both my parents having cancer, my dad had 7 years of pain before dying at the age of 80 and my mum had the added condition of Alziehmers as well as cancer. so although her cancer wasnt hurting her, she lost the ability to swallow and effetively starved to death at 80 both started getting unwell at 70 so if i toddle off this planet at 65 (I am currently 55) I will be happy.

I’m really sorry to those who have relatives who have died in awful ways or recently of corona.

Having a relative in a care home die of corona recently I can say that beforehand she had advanced dementia and a whole host of other underlying illness. She wasn’t alive, merely living in order to die. She caught corona and within 36 hours had died. It was very sad we couldn’t be with her but care homes will probably be closed for visits for the next year or more. She didn’t have anything to live for before and was just spending her days in bed, mainly sleeping and without any quality of life. I can honestly say that I would have chosen corona in her situation as well.

I agree with you OP, and other PPs points. I generally find our obsession with length of life over quality of life really baffling.
I've signed an Advanced Directive for myself declining life-prolonging treatment (antibiotics for example) if I have dementia.
Personally I was relieved my very frail, very ill (crept up then happened quite suddenly, that's what happens when you are very old) mum died when she did. Her confusion, pain, lack of control and decision-making, loss of dignity and autonomy, and all her faculties was heart-breaking. She would have been scared and vulnerable in a care home, and survived rather than lived.

Not quite sure how my slightly drunk ramblings link to Corona but maybe as a PP suggested, we all have to learn to live (as we used to) with the knowledge that death is an inevitable part of life, as many people in poorer countries do.

I can certainly get sad about them suffering. No one should die drowning in their own mucus but I would hope they would be sedated so wouldn’t be aware of if?

I fear not, I have seen many care home staff interviewed saying they have neither the resources nor the knowledge to care for people with these breathing difficulties. Maybe some were better equipped.

I don't think anyone has equated the death of an elderly person to the death of a child. That is not what the shock or sadness is about.

To those not bothered by this, what do you think about care homes in general? Should they exist? Should we try to make conditions in them as humane, comfortable and compassionate as possible? Should staff be protected from risking their lives by working there? If those are important things why isn't it disturbing to see them fall away in a matter of days and weeks, for some time behind closed doors until public and media outrage?

Sorry to say that many, many care home patients do not die peacefully in their sleep. My grandma got pneumonia and took seven days unable to eat or drink and basically wasted away. I don’t think that’s necessarily any better than dying of Covid-19.

My mum's friend's MIL is 104, before Covid she went to town every week, had her hair done, popped to the shops, she is bright as a button. She is moaning that she is bored due to lockdown & can't get her hair done. Who is to say that she shouldn't have a ventilator because she is old?

Well of course you do. They're "your" children. It's perfectly natural I agree but personally I'd be far more devastated by the death of one of " my" family members than by the death of some random child I don't know.

I would also be more upset by the death of an elderly family member than a random child. Despite this, if, for example, my 80 year old mother needed a kidney and a child needed the same kidney, I would rather the child got the kidney.

We are getting older later. Each generation is expected to live about 3 years longer than the previous - and these added years are productive years. On average, you become frail 5 years before you die, and this has not changed.

I agree mostly with the OP. Lots of people are going to die prematurely because of postponement of cancer treatment and ambulances are taking hours to get to heart attack victims.

Ambulances are not generally going anywhere elderly care home residents - they're not the ones using them.

Also, covid 19 is apparently causing a spike in heart attack deaths (not due to lack of ambulances) due to the strain on people's hearts of the illness. These people are not all old. Wanting to avoid heart attack deaths is a very good reason for us all to try our absolute hardest to avoid spreading the illness, and to keep the amount of circulating virus in the community very very low. Currently that's through the lockdown, eventually it will be through milder restrictions, but it will still depend on us all believing strongly that it's important to try not to spread or catch it. The idea that everyone's too soft about old people and that's the only reason we need the lockdown is an unfortunate misunderstanding.

I think many elderly people have a better quality of life than others realise. I know plenty of people in their 80s who until confined by this were very active, excellent social lives, financially secure, world travellers and enjoying their families and interests. I have relatives in their 90s still living independently, and until this going to clubs, groups, restaurants, enjoying family life. Many of these people are the absolute lynchpin of their families, and to those who love them every day counts. I know these are the lucky ones, I really do as I have seen it be otherwise too.

I used to have an 89 year old client who'd go to a local nursing home to visit "the old people" as she put it.

You're right that many elderly people can still have a very good quality of life. I've known many like that, some much more active than me(Not that it'd be hard) and I do think there is a certain lack of awareness of that, as though all over 50s are just waiting to die(or so you'd think from the non stop life insurance adverts aimed at them.)

That said I have seen some who had a terrible time, including seeing my Grandmother go through hell because of dementia, and it's made me plan a list of my wishes so that if I developed dementia or some other condition that made my life intolerable(by my standards) my life is not prolonged to my detriment, but personally I feel that way regardless of age. Quality of life is my priority whether I'm 40 or 80.

Well of course you do. They're "your" children. It's perfectly natural I agree but personally I'd be far more devastated by the death of one of " my" family members than by the death of some random child I don't know.

Yes, but this feeling is being extrapolated to a population level. Hence the reaction that people are so quick to condemn.

We know deep down that the life of a child is more important to preserve than the life of an elderly person. We have just been able to pretend otherwise in the West for a really long time. To the point where we are preserving life to the point of cruelty.

I am not 'not bothered', I am deeply bothered, I think trying to spread the load and look after people as much as possible is the right thing to do. I don't want elderly people 'written off'. I care.

But the reality is, these homes should not be full of these very sick, very elderly, barely alive people in the first place. They should not have to die of coronavirus without their loved ones. It is the very act of keeping people alive against their best interests that is now resulting in them dying alone. THAT is the cruelty here. Not the acceptance of the inevitability of death.

should we try to make conditions in (care homes) as humane, comfortable and compassionate as possible? Should staff be protected ...to see those things fall away in a matter of weeks

The media outrage is to sell papers.

Staff in care homes are paid less than the living wage with little or no training, resources or medical equipment. For example, they are often forced to lift patients without hoists, deal with violent patients, deal with the inevitable many deaths of lovely patients who they have built up a bond with and work 12-48 hour shifts with no sick pay holiday pay or job security. Nothing has fallen away in a matter of weeks. It's an awful set up and few people would work there if they had the choice. It's been like that forever but doesn't make a good front page.

I don't have all the answers but I would rather die than live out my last years in a care home.

The whole system needs overhauling.

Not read the whole thread, but thank you for being honest and clear sighted Op. What you have said is practically fucking heresy it would seem, but I agree with it.
I have an 86 year old mum in a Nursing home, I love her but she has dementia, heart failure and diabetes. Obviously I hope that she doesn't die - especially since that would destroy my father - but she's had a full and rewarding life (she would be the first to say that) and I am concerned that the sacrifices that the whole of society are being asked to make are wholly disproportionate

Also, I would quite like my 90 year old dad to be able to visit mum - as he had every single day, until lockdown

I suppose we do need to keep getting Coronavirus though, just at a steady rate, to not overwhelm NHS staff.
People will need to start working again soon (the ones who aren't working). Maybe elderly people in care homes would rather take their chances and receive visitors when they can, than be further isolated by it.