So we are predicted to have the highest death toll in Europe, due to systemic errors made by this government. Do you trust the government to get us out of lock down safely?

[ssd]

I don't. They've f**d up too much. NHS managers are begging for PPE, NHS workers are dying.

This government have really really let us down.

We are predicted to have 40,000 deaths by the end of this.

The only silver lining is is that Labour might get its act together now Keir Starmer is in charge. Things can't get any worse.

And if any tory bots start saying 'at least it's not Corbyn'.. Well save your breath. No one could have made a bigger mess than Boris and Co.

So we should be happy that we have the predicted highest death toll in Europe then? That's OK, that's acceptable?

It's not about being happy it's about demographics & behaviour & realism.

Their plan is still to infect all young people and school children so hundreds of them will die

You need serious help. I’m not joking.

@ssd what death rate is acceptable to you?

@keepdistance you are assuming a 2% death rate. I think that is vastly overrated given the number of people who have had this with no symptoms and no test. I think it will be more like 0.15%. So around 60,000 deaths in total until we get group immunity.

OP, where are you getting this prediction of her highest death toll in Europe from?

You've repeatedly been told that the UK is roughly in line with most other European countries - France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland.

Our current death count is lower than all those.

I feel like a lot of posters will be angry if we don't have the highest death rate...

Have you taken this headline from the increase in positive tests? If so, that number is about the increase in testing rather than the increase in infection rates. It is highly unlikely that infection rates and deaths, over time , will differ between countries with equivalent health care standards, background health, climate, density etc., because there is no choice but to reach herd immunity levels as long as we don't have a vaccine or a cure.

Bool of course the nhs is overwhelmed.
People have died at home!
Plus if the 14lk were still alive tte people still coming throught now infected wouldnt get treatment.
Care home residents are not beimg taken to hospital (which is in some ways understandable) but these choices have been made so the picture is not quite as rosy as we are treating those who need it.

Of course the plan is for it to spread round schools!!
They are 'low risk'
They kept them open even with confirmed cases and wouldnt allow them to close.... Ours didnt even say anything for a day.
Personally i think the teachers should refuse. They havent got ppe no social distancing 30 to a room plus TA. And kids picking noses or asymptomatic etc.

France were advised not to reopen schools.
Germany are looking at certain year groups
Masks
Fewer in a class etc.

No country plans to just ram 30 kids back in a room like we did before.

@tontie agree. But we won’t. Unless we seriously swamp our health service. Which hasn’t happened yet due to their most extraordinary effort. Huge huge thanks

I went out for the weekly shop today and was shocked how many cars were on the roads-it didn't even look like any sort of lockdown was in effect. Maybe everyone just chose today to go shopping as well like me but I was surprised to only notice a slight reduction in traffic. It looked different to the scenes from other countries that's for sure.

@Keepdistance I would find it extraordinary if it hadn’t already swept through the schools in London.

So this is what worries me.
The prime minister saying i was in hosptal shaking hands with coronavirus patients - people can make up their own minds".

Jenny harries deputy chief medical officer saying mass outside gathering were ok.

Sir patrick Valance saying that the uk is tracking France - clearly not and i dont have a maths o level.

These things worry me. Along with no ppe, high death rate, lack of transparancy on figures and what really worries is what is going on care homes! The figures will be huge i am sure

And now i feel the gov is setting up the blame for the lack on testing elsewhere! They have the capacity! It will not be the govs fault then.

Whether you trust the govt or not is an irritation and opinion - but largely irrelevant.

What choice does anyone have?

@Katie2017 it’s because people are slacking off which was exactly as predicted by the behavioural scientists and exactly why they wanted to wait until the last minute to lockdown. They didn’t want people coming out of lock down when we need it most. Which is now. Lockdown will gradually deteriorate

@katie2017 why would you assume other people in their cars had less reason to be out then you?

No one has a handle on this properly at the moment it a brand new virus which has hit pandemic worldwide.

If you can tell me which Government are handling it so much better (and dont say Germany because I am not sure) or South Korea because believe me I am not sure we are going to accept that level of contract tracing.

This is so new that honestly if we do have 40000 deaths at the end of this however awful and sad that is just going to be because we had a viral pandemic. And all told not a terrible figure.

And look at China they have already had to increase Wuhan deaths by 50% because they know they hid deaths (and I still dont think it is all there is)

I dont like this GOvernment and I certainly never voted or will vote for them but I do realise that this is so out of everyone knowledge and comfort zone who could have done better?

But I also think the US is in a far worse state

I can't imagine that anyone (sane) is happy with the prospect of having the highest death toll in Europe.
I didn't vote Conservative in the last election and felt that it was an impossible choice because I wanted neither BJ or Corbyn as PM.
I think the NHS have been let down with PPE shortages however that is not a unique problem to the uk. There are shortages in many other countries. (although I think the gov is being disingenious by pretending its not a problem)
There are no obvious choices between economy and health, they are intertwined. What about all the deaths attributed to the last 10 years of austerity? Tanking the economy (and cancelling or postponing many other medical apts and services) is really not that beneficial for the health of the nation. And all the time people are not earning and paying taxes the less money is available for the NHS and other services.
You know we aren't in lockdown to get rid of the virus. The genie is already out of the bottle. Its basically to delay everyone getting it at the same time.
One thing that I am surprised about is that a family member came back from abroad this week and would have passed through at least 3 airports and they were not advised to self isolate.

But I also agree people will get bored & tired & push the boundaries because it's human nature which is why we had to lockdown & stick to it at the critical point

I find it very strange.
One half of the Media and MSM hate the Gov because they consider they imposed the lockdown too late.
The other half seem to hate the Gov for imposing a Lockdown at all.
The Gov have been going on the scientific advice, and I would think the results would be very similar with whoever were in power.
Remember, when Trump banned flights in from China, he was criticised by the WHO (and others) for doing so.
Some of the problems this government have been having seem to be due to the PHE, by not utilising the private laboratories (testing), etc.
The lack of PPE is an ongoing problem because it is disposable stuff, and constantly changed and therefore disposed of between patients.
I don't think you can realistically stockpile these items (nurses have complained of some being out of date); does it degrade over time?
When this is over, there will be a proper inquiry to determine who and where any mistakes have been made.
Personally, I think we should try to manufacture some of this in the UK, (obviously labour costs are cheaper in China, and other developing countries).So there should also be the facility of expansion in the time of a crisis, etc
However, I would never claim to be an expert, and I am sure they are all doing their best to organise it all.

@ssd. I absolutely agree.

Today we’ve heardProf. Anthony Costello UCL, telling us that our Govt. had time to react more quickly. But didn’t. The 5pm BBC press briefings have promised testing/PPE supply weeks on end. It’s not there. Matt Hancock can keep telling us it is. It isn’t. The “masks won’t make any difference “ advice was (I think) based in the fact that the mask cupboard was bare. We haven’t quarantined people coming in from other heavily affected countries. We STILL aren’t doing this. People are continuing to step off the plane and straight out into the community. We were two weeks or more behind Ireland and Scotland in shutting down or, beginning to. We’ve allowed non essential building workers to continue working. Even the football authorities were quicker to recognise the benefit of no spectators than our PM. We cannot perform the tests. Lab workers are going home early because they don’t have anything to do. We’ve allowed community healthcare workers to go from home to home, caring for the most vulnerable, without any (never mind basic) protection.

And our illustrious PM ended up in intensive care after flouting his own advice on social distancing. He and his unelected sidekick, Cummings favoured herd immunity when other countries were closing,

They couldn’t have fucked this up any better. And I don’t care about Mr Corbyn. He’s NOT in charge now.

@tontie, I can't believe you just said this

"I feel like a lot of posters will be angry if we don't have the highest death rate..."

That says everything about you. You think voters who didn't vote Conservative will be happy that thousands die, to prove them right??

You should be ashamed of yourself.

my relative died 2 weeks ago in a care home, no symptoms & test was negative but certificate says probable corona because there was a confirmed case in the same home. She had very late stage dementia.

No it hasn't swept through London schools already, wishful thinking.

@Bool

I think that what pp was trying to say is that people having had the virus does not necessarily mean they are producing antibodies needed for immunity, and of those who are producing them many are older. We also don't know If antibodies will mean immunity and if so..full/partial, short/long term. Further details of this including sources are on the current Daily graphs, numbers thread.

I also saw something indicating that to allow infections to occur to a extent that might reach 60%, while also at a rate keeping demand for hospital beds wiyhin capacity, would take years and probably longer than a time to a vaccine if we get one.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Seriously? ps i'm not a Tory voter but my dad an NHS consultant is 🤷‍♀️