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Population of Germany 83.02 million, coronavirus deaths 4,098

123 replies

ChicChicChicChiclana · 17/04/2020 13:00

Population of UK 66.65 million, coronavirus deaths 13,729

To me this is the most amazing statistic of the pandemic so far.

If our Government have questions to answer, surely this is the big one!?

OP posts:
cathyandclare · 18/04/2020 11:08

German medics have greater resources so will not hesitate to put a 65 year old on a ventilator whereas I have been told by UK medics that this may not happen here in case that 65 year old then spends weeks/months on it

There's increasing evidence that ventilation can be a problem with CV patients. It's very difficult to get people off. If Germany do have high numbers of 65+ year olds on ventilators, sadly many may be ventilated for long periods and ultimately die. If, however, the German intensivists are more successful at weaning intubated patients, it would be good to hear their policies.

Zantedeschia · 18/04/2020 11:16

Along with their own testing, Germany are also testing Ireland's backlog. Thanks, Germany!

I've always had a lot of respect for Angela Merkel. Plus she has years of experience in the job.

Boris Johnson has less than 1 year's experience as PM ( mostly based on Brexit )

Also glad Leo Varadkar was still there, even as acting Taoiseach at the start.

Imagine someone from the opposition who had never been in power taking on Covid along with all the other challenges of the role.

Mentounasc · 20/04/2020 12:15

Blimey, there's been some crap spouted on this thread (along with much good information - thanks especially to PP who are German residents for putting things straight).

How on earth did it get around that Germany is not counting all corona-positive victims in the tally? What it's not doing as standard is giving all the deceased a postmortem test if they hadn't been tested beforehand. But lots of countries are doing the same thing - including Britain, no? And the German figure, unlike in the UK, includes deaths outside hospital. What's certainly true is that the RKI figures take a little longer to get into the system so are often a few hundred cases out because they haven't been updated yet. I use figures collated by a newspaper called Der Tagesspiegel which counts all the numbers issued by local authorities. Deaths are currently at 4642 on that site.

The one Bundesland which doesn't automatically count someone as a coronavirus victim if they have tested positive is Hamburg. But anybody there who has died after testing positive is autopsied to confirm whether covid-19 was indeed the primary cause of death. Of course this reduces the total number to have officially died of the illness, but it's certainly more accurate. But this makes a tiny difference - look at the link I gave and you can see that Hamburg has 4000 cases out of 145,000, and currently has 91 confirmed deaths.

Ultimately, in Germany we pay quite a lot for a very robust system, and that is becoming very apparent now. It is miles away from an American-style 'private insurance' system, as just about everybody gets insured (there are a few people who end up uninsured through loopholes, but it's pretty uncommon) at a rate that is dependent on their income. It is NOT true in the state-controlled system that older or ill people pay more for healthcare - the sole criterion is how much you earn and your capacity to pay. The unemployed, those unable to work through illness, in full-time education - none of them pay anything for insurance. My elder DD is nearly 22 and has never paid insurance as she has always been in education, so it's all covered by our own insurance as her parents. She will only start paying once she earns her own money (and even then the first 450 euros can be earned without paying insurance). Sure there are some systematic problems that could do with being resolved (allowing some people to opt out of the state-controlled system is an abomination, because the small percentage who are privately insured DO pay more once they become ill, and then they try to crawl back into the state system), but ultimately people largely get the treatment they need without waiting too long. And now we have 11,000 free intensive care beds, so of course anyone with breathing difficulties is going to be whizzed into hospital quickly before it gets too bad. There's actually an article in the paper today questioning whether patients in ITU are being put on ventilators too quickly!

Anyone who thinks Germans stick to rules has never been to Berlin. BUT, the rules have just been a lot clearer and easier to stick to, and I haven't noticed anyone indulging in the spying and judging and denouncing that seems to have sprung up in the UK (if MN is anything to go by). If shops are open you can use them as long as you stick to the 1.5 metres distance, and of course fewer people are allowed in at one time. If shops are allowed to sell a product, then you're allowed to buy it. No crap about is it necessary or not, no police checking bags and questioning Easter eggs. We personally use self-made masks in supermarkets even though it's not yet compulsory where we live (have just seen Bavaria has made it compulsory now in addition to Saxony and Mec-Pom), purely as a courtesy to those around us. I think people can be more relaxed with each other (not relaxed about following the rules, but about applying them calmly and with civility) because we know that our common goal is to keep Ro below 1.0 and protect older and vulnerable people, but that if a healthy person gets it nonetheless, they are very unlikely to die precisely because hospitals can cope. In the UK I suspect I would also be more uptight because it seems more of a lottery and you're constantly bombarded with messages that the system is overloaded.

B1rdbra1n · 20/04/2020 12:26

Thanks for a very interesting and informative post Mentounasc😊

jasjas1973 · 20/04/2020 13:01

Imagine someone from the opposition who had never been in power taking on Covid along with all the other challenges of the role

Johnson has been off sick for most of it, had he not pursued Brexit at any cost, perhaps Germany would be helping with our testing too?

As it is, he has refused help from the EU and his officials are still negotiating a trade deal... time perhaps best spent (esp in Jan/Feb) securing PPE instead of ideology?

Given the recent revelations, the present Govt haven't covered themselves in glory despite having so called experience.

VenusOfWillendorf · 20/04/2020 13:09

Hong Kong has a population of 7.5 million, is one of the most densly populated places in the world - and has only 4 deaths (none in April). They have done extensive testing, contact tracing and quarantine, but have not had a lock-down.
They were badly hit by SARS so were more prepared and their population very aware of the need to react quickly in isolating suspected cases. Everyone wears masks.
Lots to be learned from them.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/test-trace-lessons-hong-kong-avoiding-coronavirus-lockdown

Pluckedpencil · 20/04/2020 13:20

I do think their low numbers are a direct reflection of a top notch health care system. Look at South Korea. Same story. I'd love to see a table of national health spend per capita versus deaths per capita. You generally get out what you put into a healthcare system. That is both in terms of money and expertise. Health and education have not been high on the UK agenda for a fair old while now and sadly you reap what you sow.

user1471448556 · 20/04/2020 13:27

Lived in Germany up until 2005 ... decided to come back to the UK with British husband to be nearer to family when we had kids ... fast forward to 2016 and then to now ... what a massive mistake that was - Brexit followed by May, then Boris ... their obsession with Brexit at all costs ... and now Covid 19 under Boris' PM-ship. Germany's stats are remarkable - they have an admirable leader and they are prepared to pay high taxes to ensure they have a top quality healthcare system - available to all. We need to be talking to them and finding out everything we can about their approach - this probably won't happen though, because the Brexit loons have to distance themselves from the EU in all circumstances. We need these idealogues out of power.

CatteStreet · 20/04/2020 20:22

Great post, Mentounasc (and smile of recognition at 'Anyone who thinks Germans stick to rules has never been to Berlin' Grin )

Cacacoisfarraige · 20/04/2020 20:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YogaFaker · 21/04/2020 08:20

I think there's a huge difference between Germany's 'social contract' and that of the UK. And broadly the difference is that in Germany a broadly democratic socialism (not Marxism/communism) has been the norm since Bismarck introduced a version of the welfare state as a kind of "soft power" for the unification of Germany in the 1870s.

It's the Gesellschaft/Gemeinschaft thinking, from my observation (Brit with German family).

Whereas in the UK, the commitment to individualism & liberalism means we think differently about the social contract.

The bit of Germany I'm familiar with is small town regional city Germany, on the edge of the Ruhrgebiet - where neighbours still enforce the "no washing hung out, no lawn mowing, no window washing on Sundays" sort of thinking. I have been stopped from jaywalking (ach! can't remember the Deutsch for that) and I've seen people even police which side of the pavement to walk on ...

So there's a greater emphasis (in my experience) on communal living. Sometimes I think (from a Brit's perspective) Germans forget the reason for rules and just insist on the rules Grin .

I have had personal cause to be able to compare notes about the treatment of breast cancer, though, and for that rather wished I lived in Germany ...

CatteStreet · 21/04/2020 09:17

YogaFaker - social democracy rather than democratic socialism - or, as the CDU would put it, soziale Marktwirtschaft.

I think there is more tolerance for communal ways of living in Germany than in the UK - I still do a double take when I see gardens around individual houses with no fence/hedge to speak of or literally none at all - but I'm not sure there's any less sense of 'there is One Right Way of doing things and We Will Enforce It' in (much of) Germany than there is in (much of) the English middle classes in particular.

For a culture that frowns on it so much, and especially one with such an excellent facility for compound nouns in its language, it's bizarre that there isn't actually a word for jaywalking here. It's just 'bei Rot gehen'. We should invent one.

cathyandclare · 21/04/2020 09:19

Germans forget the reason for rules and just insist on the rules

I love this!

Therollockingrogue · 21/04/2020 09:27

"Germans forget the reason for rules and just insist on the rules"

This is bullshit nonsense.
If we keep perpetuating this stuff it simply means we aren’t questioning why Germans have come out of this enormously stronger than the Uk.
It’s deeply concerning to me that we have such a lesser quality of life than our German counterparts.

CatteStreet · 21/04/2020 09:43

Yy rollockingrogue.

It's actually on this UK site that I see people talking about 'the rules'. There is no monolithic notion of 'the rules' over here in Germany. There are 'the restrictions' (we have, God help us, started talking about 'der Lockdown' Confused ), and they vary from state to state. Germans actually have very good historical reasons to be rather averse to rigid enforcing of 'the rules' at all costs. To the extent that the government has started allowing socially distanced demonstrations (of not more than 20 people).

greenlynx · 21/04/2020 10:00

I agree, it’s a big question which needs to be answered. Huge amount of people died, they continue to die and it’s not the whole picture yet.
I sincerely hope there will be public inquiry at the end.

I think Germany has a better health care system in general. Also people do go to hospital too late here. Tbh in general they call for ambulance at quite late stages in U.K. I’m not from U.K. originally and it was one of the big surprises for me when we moved here.

Therollockingrogue · 21/04/2020 10:40

Exactly.
And we resist a different healthcare system in this country because people assume the alternative is the American system.
But the German system is an excellent model in many ways. So let’s look at it without always meeting this wall of ‘oh the Germans just do as they’re told’ .
It isn’t true.
In fact it could be argued that it’s us that are just doing as we’re told . Standing on doorsteps clapping for the lambs to the slaughter that are our underpaid overworked healthcare workers. Being forced to worship our failing nhs?
Being told to clap for Boris?
Losing our businesses through a mad elitist expensive support system that btw we will ALL pay for down the line?! (But we won’t all benefit from Rishi’s generosity now, far from it).

Therollockingrogue · 21/04/2020 10:58

And...it has to be said... the amount of embarrassing facts about our nation that have become apparent with this pandemic....
eg... Some kids have to go to school to eat, otherwise they starve.
Kids have no access to the internet or a computer in 2020.
A huge proportion of the older generation are not computer literate at all.
A huge proportion of the general population are not financially literate at all.
Our universities charge extortionate fees.
And so on. It’s very disturbing.

B1rdbra1n · 21/04/2020 11:16

Angela Merkel is a scientist with an ability to understand detail
As such she is the antithesis of Donald Trump!

EdwinaMay · 22/04/2020 08:29

The fact that Angela Merkel is at the top and has been for yonks so is experienced in that role must help. Bojo was mayor of London but hardly the same.
Also Germany seems to have autonomous states. Ruling from London, the one huge metropolis is not a good idea - I live in the countryside. We should probably have quite different contact rules from London.

CatteStreet · 23/04/2020 06:47

EdwinaMay, the downside of the federal structure is a sometimes rather confusing collection of variations in 'the rules', that may have less bearing on the actual situation in the state than on political tendencies. Some cities have been going it alone too. OTOH Germany's political system is quite consensus-oriented despite federalism, which can make things a bit stagnant but which really helps at a time like this.

CatteStreet · 23/04/2020 06:47

Argh, I mean the other way round - the actual situation may have less bearing on variations than political tendencies do. Coffee time.

lljkk · 26/04/2020 14:33

Schools & universities are closed in Hong Kong & , and have been for many weeks (since February?). Gatherings have small size limits in both places. They quarantine all arrivals for 14 days. HK HAS closed pubs & restaurants to contain the outbreak. There are rolling lockdown measure in each place, not no lockdown measures at all.

This article on SK is interesting, especially the dormitories for the low risk.

How would UK even do quarantine for arrivals with Northern Ireland/Irish border situation...??

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