Population of Germany 83.02 million, coronavirus deaths 4,098

[ChicChicChicChiclana]

Population of UK 66.65 million, coronavirus deaths 13,729

To me this is the most amazing statistic of the pandemic so far.

If our Government have questions to answer, surely this is the big one!?

Germany followed the WHO advice to test, test, test

Meanwhile our government gave up and our arrogant Oxbridge scientific advisers like Jenny Harries claimed that WHO advice was only for poor countries, not us

Our death rate is a direct result

They tested, tracked and contained, like WHO recommended. They shine a light on other countries negligence.

EthelMay, half of the pension and health insurance contribution (and I think the unemployment insurance too) is covered by the employer if you're an employee. The percentages are the same whatever your income, but for very low incomes a lump sum is deducted to cover all social insurance.

You don't pay any tax, or very little, below a certain income. There's also generous child benefit and not so generous top up benefit.

Yeah my brain keeps coming back to this and wondering if it's deliberate to do a decent cull of the weak.

Rubbish.

I hate this government
I think they have massively fucked up
I want them to be held to account
I am ashamed that our response has been so appalling

But stating that it’s a “cull” I 100% do not believe. And further if you focus on nonsense argument like this it will allow those who have utterly failed to deflect the attention from the real issue onto people like you who frankly sound completely irrational.

They thought they could summon “good old fashioned British “we are the best” stiff upper lip” but actually they’ve been rumbled as being a second rate government, who have underinvested in public services for Years and they are now facing the consequences.

Being about the same as Italy or Spain should give us no comfort whatsoever.

@EthelMayFergus
It's a percentage deducted from your gross income.
My income is on the low side and DH is a freelance literary scientist so even lower. Health insurance covers my children, too, until they are out of full time education or reach 25y.
If you are on a really low wage, unemployed, on benefits etc. you are covered differently out of this pot.

They thought they could summon “good old fashioned British “we are the best” stiff upper lip” but actually they’ve been rumbled as being a second rate government, who have underinvested in public services for Years and they are now facing the consequences

This.

The last 10 years we’ve been governed by Tory careerists without any ethical backbone.

Better resourced, better outcomes.

"At the outset of the pandemic, Germany had 28,000 intensive care beds, more than most of its neighbouring countries. In recent days that has been raised to 40,000, as hospitals brace themselves for a huge influx of patients with Covid-19."

"Germany has more than twice as many vacant critical care beds as England has in its system overall. It is running as many as 100,000 coronavirus tests a day, many more than its neighbours. It has significantly increased its supply of ventilators, ordering 10,000 in mid-March to add to its existing 20,000 machines."

"But medical experts say another key factor is the number of hospitals in Germany. The country boasts a total of 497,000 hospital beds for general and acute care: by contrast, the UK has 101,255, 44 per cent fewer than it had in 1988. All three tiers of the German system — the big “maximum-care” and general care hospitals and the smaller, primary care facilities — have been treating Covid-19 patients, since even smaller institutions have intensive care units (ICUs)."

Read that again. "44 per cent fewer than it had in 1988"

www.ft.com/content/d979c0e9-4806-4852-a49a-bbffa9cecfe6

A system needs to be well resourced AND properly managed. The nhs has been wasting money for years. Wasting money and using the most outdated systems going. It’s disgusting how long it takes to get a medical appointment in England, and more troubling that we must endure the ancient gp system in order to see a specialist. The Uk could have ten times the resources of Germany, but it wouldn’t matter now, because the entire structure of the system is flawed.

I

Yeah my brain keeps coming back to this and wondering if it's deliberate to do a decent cull of the weak.

@gamerchick I think it’s due to the fear that the NHS will be overwhelmed and so they have gone the other way, but far too far - and can also repeat every day that the NHS is not overwhelmed.

Yes, that’s because a lot of people are dying at home and in care homes .

Why can't we let more people into the hospital to get the earlier treatment of Oxygen since there are still lots of spaces in London Nightingale hospital?

I assume because they’d have to draw medical staff from other London hospitals?

@flowerpeaceful I've seen various reasons. Nightingale can't take the critical patients on ventilators because they don't have the appropriate staff. Nightingale can't take Covid patients who have other health issues (heart problems, for instance), again, because they don't have the staff to deal with those issues. Nightingale can't be filled with patients in the early stages of Covid who need oxygen because they don't have enough staff.

Take your pick. If I remember correctly, the question of staff for the Nightingale hospitals was raised when they were announced. I think the government said staffing them wouldn't be a problem.

So they magic up all these extra beds and thought we wouldn't notice that they couldn't magic up extra staff
Extra staff without which the beds cannot be used

@EthelMayFergus
German taxes are really high here a guide in case you are interested. its much higher tax than the uk.
www.worldwide-tax.com/germany/germany_tax.asp

@flowerpeaceful beds & equipment are useless without trained staff to care for the patient. This govts actions in recent years have decimated the numbers of nhs staff in numerous ways (removing nurse training bursary, effectively reducing pay, underfunding training, Brexit...)

Nhs people have been warning that even a bad fu season would cause a major crisis and many deaths and were belittled and ignored!

*flu season I meant

Also, and this will not be a popular comment but it's accurate, the lack of decent pay comes down to the old you pay peanuts...

Well you don't get the highest quality of applicants for training either!

For many years the entry requirements have been messed with too, too much emphasis on academia not enough on practical ability and emotional suitability.

An ex colleague of mine now mentors trainees on her ward and increasingly the nurse trainees coming through are ignorant of and resistant to doing the tasks seen as more menial/mundane.

Partly poor attitude (and those with this attitude should be screened out at application stage), partly they're not being trained to understand why those tasks while seemingly menial/mundane can provide key opportunities to build a rapport with patients and/or make subtle observations of a patients condition without alarming or embarrassing the patient.

Not all of them, but a significant number these are issues.

It's not just lack of staff in terms of numbers but also in terms of quality.

I've even as a patient come across practice nurses that don't know how to take a pulse or bp correctly! I kid you not.

As I said, taboo but true.

Nhs people have been warning that even a bad fu season would cause a major crisis and many deaths and were belittled and ignored!

Yet the public, despite seeing the front pages of many newspapers who did report NHS failings and with their own eyes when they go to Hospital - continue to vote in political parties that don't fund health to the same level as our EU counterparts.

I understood that when indirect taxes are taken into account i.e. council, insurance taxes, fuel etc UK overall tax burden is similar to Germany's.

I guess the years of austerity meant that things like pandemic planning didn't happen.

What I dont' understand is if Germany and other countries open up - what if people come in from abroad, or people in the country who have CV then spread it again, why won't we have the whole scenario over again. I guess it's because they ahve millions of tests to catch it any time it breaks out but still seems iffy because if not many people had it they are surely more likely to be seriously ill when it does reappear. Whereas here possibly more people will have immunity.

No one really knows how long you are immune for however, or whether or not you can get it a second time. I guess testing, contact tracing and quarantining when done properly not only saves lives but also can be kept going until there is a vaccine.

Come to think of it (although it seems the distant past now) Brexit was all that was happening in the UK for 3 years - other stuff just got shelved.

"Germany is recording deaths differently to us,if a person with an underlying health condition has Coronavirus and dies,the underlying health condition is given as the reason for death!! Opposite to us."

Rubbish
I live in Germany

In Germany, anyone dying "with" Coronavirus is counted as dying "of" Coronavirus

Germany includes deaths in care homes

The UK, like most other countries, does not

The hospital ICUs in Germany are nearly half empty even after having taken in a few hundred patients from Italy and France

The total deaths from all causes during lockdown may be even lower than the same period in 2019,
because of lower deaths from RTAs, work, pubs / alcohol, flu (!) etc

"if Germany and other countries open up"

This is the big risk, but it's not practical to stay locked down for 2 years or whenever the vaccine can be rolled out

Germany is a good guinea pig to try this out

• it has a much lower death curve and large spare capacity in the health system

However, Merkel warned that if R0 - the number of people each infected person then infects - rises to 1.1,

then exponential cases growth would overwhelm the German health system by October

Such a dangerous balancing act for every country:
economy vs infection rate

The UK epidemic is about 2 weeks behind continental Europe,
so has the advantage of being able to watch what happens in Germany, France, Austria and other countries who are easing measures

To see what works and what doesn't

what if people come in from abroad, or people in the country who have CV then spread it again, why won't we have the whole scenario over again

I think they're doing a lot of contact tracing in Germany. Certainly that's how they've managed in South Korea. I'll ask my relatives.

The UK epidemic is about 2 weeks behind continental Europe,
so has the advantage of being able to watch what happens in Germany, France, Austria and other countries who are easing measures

To see what works and what doesn't

Problem is, I have very little zero confidence that our current government is able to do that. I just don't think this lot have the ethical or intellectual backbone.

I just hope they listen to the scientists.

According to the WHO figures on healthcare spending per capita, Germany only spends about 5% more per person than the UK.

Netherlands and Switzerland both spend more than Germany, but have death rates similar to the UK.

There's really big structural differences in health care, how it's funded and how well distributed it is across different population groups in different countries in Europe.

Yet Germany is an outlier. It's not as simple as their healthcare is better, and ours is underfunded, therefore that's the cause of difference.