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Population of Germany 83.02 million, coronavirus deaths 4,098

123 replies

ChicChicChicChiclana · 17/04/2020 13:00

Population of UK 66.65 million, coronavirus deaths 13,729

To me this is the most amazing statistic of the pandemic so far.

If our Government have questions to answer, surely this is the big one!?

OP posts:
GlamGiraffe · 17/04/2020 15:41

*We don't need higher taxes to fund the NHS, we need people to take responsibility for their health, everyone to pay nominal insurance like in Germany and the NHS to be restructured so it isn't run by the idiots who run it now who haemorrhage money like a leaky watering can.

Non essential procedures need to be covered by insurance and it needs to be a service that runs 7 days a week too.*

That is the huge difference in the systems and the way the public consequently act. Of course it makes a difference.

Delatron · 17/04/2020 15:45

Yep instead of tracking and tracing cases we did the opposite. We’d only test people once they had symptoms and only if they’d been to a hotspot.

So thousands of people returning from Italy went back to school and work. We knew full well the incubation period is two weeks... Madness.

Yet Germany managed to trace people who had passed salt shakers to each other! And quarantine them...

TheoSawUs · 17/04/2020 16:00

A friend works at Public Health England and he told me a while ago that the reason Germany’s figures were so much lower were because they were attributing deaths to underlying conditions and not to Covid. However, a German friend of mine says German medics have greater resources so will not hesitate to put a 65 year old on a ventilator whereas I have been told by UK medics that this may not happen here in case that 65 year old then spends weeks/months on it.

Fiderer · 17/04/2020 16:00

The RKI’s (Robert Koch Institut = Public Health Institute) - official mortality figures include both people who have died of the virus as well as those infected and with underlying health problems, where the precise cause of death could not be determined.

Tracing and testing started earlier than the UK. The figures of those infected and those dying, especially in care homes are still rising as are concerns about protective gear.

Anecdotally we live in a small village in a state not badly affected. I got a call on March 3rd from the local health authority that my daughter had been at the GP in the waiting room on Feb 28th with their first patient diagnosed with Covid19. She'd recently been in Italy and went to the doctor with flu-like symptoms and they rushed the tests over the weekend.

So my daughter was told to stay off school for 14 days, all parents of classmates informed.

Not so reassured by the German back to school policy mind.

jasjas1973 · 17/04/2020 16:01

Paleblue

How would Germany be manufacturing tests for a then unknown disease?
It was a new test, requiring new manufacturing and testing procedures, Merkel told Bayer etc to start making the tests in January.

its not just the tests though, you need automation to test the numbers Germany is doing and they built that up early too

Read a report a few weeks ago, into why the govt hasn't used animal health labs, who do millions of tests across our farming industry.
Govt wanted new centralised facility in MK instead.

Graphista · 17/04/2020 16:05

As an ex nurse & a patient who has been massively let down repeatedly I have to say for too long the nhs has operated largely on intervening far far too late in the mistaken belief this is cheaper!

We’ve an appalling attitude to health/illness in this country

From presenteeism (which just spreads the infections more and means the sufferers take longer to return to full health)

To supposed primary care where patients are discouraged from seeing a nurse or gp until they’re extremely unwell. And even then if you’re a woman whatever is wrong with you may well be blamed on your mh (you’re “hysterical” “neurotic” rather than “actually sick”) - even if you have clear physical visual symptoms! This applies to children too indirectly if it’s mum takes them to the dr. My mother at one point discovered her visit to the dr when my sister was seriously ill as a child (later that DAY blue lighted to hospital) was recorded as “child healthy, mother neurotic” on my sisters medical record!

To gp surgeries being financially discouraged from referring patients to specialists even when it is clearly indicated clinically.

THIS is what needs to change.

We DO need better funding of the nhs but it does also need better organisation (there’s a lot of organisational and administrative waste and even corruption in the nhs) and a more preventive approach. (Which is how Germany generally handles things, indeed their enshrining this in govt acts is believed to have saved their health system and country a lot of money)

Annual check ups for all would be a start and I personally would like that to include not only checks for obvious things like diabetes, high blood pressure & cholesterol, but thorough checks on thyroid health, nutrient levels not just iron, ecg and checks for known cancer markers.

I would also like for patients to be able to reasonably self refer to specialists as happens in most other countries.

Myself and several loved ones have horrific experiences of being fobbed off for YEARS with clear symptoms of conditions and unable to access a specialist all that time

When we eventually DID get access to the relevant specialists the conditions were quickly diagnosed and treated. Those YEARS without a diagnosis not only caused distress and unnecessary continuing ill health, they also resulted in much time off work and sometimes being unable to work at all for months or years.

Blocking patients from accessing specialists I strongly believe is NOT saving the country, or the patients affected, any money at all!

A healthy, working population, paying taxes is far preferable for the health of the whole nation.

However, I will caution against holding Germany up as the perfect example. I have heard from people living there, working in health and social care that not all cv deaths are being recorded/reported as such, this is something their citizens are questioning.

I still think they’re doing better than us, but not as well as they’re claiming.

I too have heard from ex colleagues that bcg vaccination and vitamin d levels appear to be major factors in recovery from cv.

This erroneous idea that the tories are about saving money is disproven in many areas but particularly wrt healthcare and keeping people healthy enough to work.

They're more than quick to vilify and denigrate the long term sick unemployed but do bugger all to prevent people becoming too sick to work in the first place, nor do they employ positive, practical measures to help people return to work.

They just want us attacking each other rather than questioning and criticising them

Namechangervaver · 17/04/2020 16:07

I think the early intervention thing is key, which is what worries me. I was reading about a really promising sounding experimental drug (something like 115 critically ill patients in ICU were given it and only 2 died, the rest recovered) But I can't imagine it being quickly available to the masses in this country if approvedConfused. I wonder if Boris received it.

FOJN · 17/04/2020 16:20

Graphista
I could have typed your first sentence and I agree with everything you've written.

Prokupatuscrakedatus · 17/04/2020 16:24

Regarding funding of health care in Germany:

Before my money comes into my account (ordinary employed person), these percentages have already - as per law - been deducted:
health insurance (14,60% + 1,5%) - matched by my employer
pension (18,6%)
unemployment (2,5%)
olde age care (3,95%)

There are rates for people not employed and if you earn above a certain level you can go private - private rates rise with age.

By the way - I've seen people with face shields instead of masks (see through, safe and disinfectable.

BamboozledandBefuddled · 17/04/2020 16:27

They just want us attacking each other rather than questioning and criticising them

100% this. It's been the government's primary policy for several years.

PicsInRed · 17/04/2020 16:28

I wonder if the proportion of BAME citizens and residents has an impact on countries' respective outcomes (as well as heavily aged populations). We know there does appear to be susceptibility in both the aged and BAME populations.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 17/04/2020 16:42

I am really confused. I thought that Germany were only recording deaths that were of Coronavirus, not with Coronavirus. Is that not true?

I also thought that Germany had huge manufacturing capacity for making the tests in place where we are having to find/create capacity. Is that not correct either? I agree that we should have more testing- pretty much everyone agrees with that - and there may be errors along the way/differences of view about how best to create that capacity, but hugely increased testing is what the Government is trying to achieve and it is clearly a priority. However, because of capacity issue they are also making sure that they do not rely on testing. Is that not all correct?

Prokupatuscrakedatus · 17/04/2020 16:50

According to the RKI a person that dies and is found out via testing after death to have carried the virus is counted as a corona death.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 17/04/2020 16:50

jasjas They couldn’t manufacture for a unknown disease. But when it was possible I didn’t say they could, and I am asking the questions because I don’t know the answers. My understanding is that Germany’s manufacturing base in this area is much greater than ours which is why they could quickly turn that base to manufacturing this test. I don’t know if that is simply because we do not have anything on the scale of Roche/our capacity is much more fragmented or because we simply do not have the same capacity overall?

Graphista · 17/04/2020 16:53

@FOJN thank you, though it saddens me every time I hear of another with the same experience.

@BamboozledandBefuddled it saddens and angers me that the majority of voters don't see this and keep blindly voting for a party that doesn't give a shit for them and their loved ones. I used to live in the south east and I'm totally perplexed at how many of my friends from there vote Tory when they're in jobs and life positions SUFFERING as a direct result of Tory policy, the denial/cognitive dissonance is quite astonishing! At one point one posted they'd voted Tory and the NEXT DAY was bemoaning the fact an important op they need was postponed a 2nd time yet they didn't see the link.

@PicsInRed I believe that relates to the vit d issue which is very much being downplayed. As an agoraphobic Scot I wonder about the effect of lack of vit d here and on me in particular.

cologne4711 · 17/04/2020 18:12

An annual tourism trade event in Berlin, due to be held in the first week of March was cancelled at the last minute for safety reasons. It was very damaging to their economy as it attracts 70,000 visitors to the city

The London book fair was cancelled too, it was on 10th March. Things DID happen here.

I agree with the pp who wrote this "Early intervention is probably a factor. People are being treated and given oxygen as soon as they experience breathing difficulties. We're telling people not to ring 111 until they're turning blue and can barely speak".

It is access to care, access to care and access to care.

AmIAStone · 17/04/2020 18:50

The NHS has been working on firefighting for too long. The American way is far to much the other way, but annual health checks for kids with a paediatrician/annual blood checks for adults seems a good balance.

Many of my conditions you have to wait until it’s really bad and early intervention would have been better for me.

YogaFaker · 17/04/2020 19:23

As an ex nurse & a patient who has been massively let down repeatedly I have to say for too long the nhs has operated largely on intervening far far too late in the mistaken belief this is cheaper!

@Graphista I was interested in this blog - tough reading, but a couple of sentences jumped out at me:

Resistance to Lansley’s disastrous market-oriented NHS reforms resulted in a backlash of criticism accusing the NHS of being intrinsically resistant to change and indifferent to patient needs. Now it has been found to be fleet-footed when the people that work there can see that that they are serving patients and not political vanity or private profits. We’ve been allowed to decide for ourselves what’s most important

abetternhs.net/2020/04/16/a-month-in-primary-care-with-coronavirus-sudden-death-end-of-life-discussions-lockdown-and-inequalities/

jasjas1973 · 17/04/2020 19:25

Paleblue

Why would Germany have a ready made base of testing in place, what for? what were they testing?
UK does millions of tests: farming, human health.

A company in Coventry is making 150k pieces of PPE p.w. they could make 1.5 million per week, UK Govt hasn't asked them to do so, most PPE is very simple to make, that's one company!

The Govt, much like some S.American countries, decided to go for Herd Immunity, so preparedness wasn't necessary.

CatteStreet · 17/04/2020 19:38

I wish people would stop repeating the thing about Germany not recording deaths where underlying conditions are present. AFAIK, the opposite is true, as Prokjupatus says.

Just to back up what she says about paying for healthcare, the employee and employer pay half each of the roughly 16 % of gross income overall - self-employed people (like me) pay the full 16%, based on profit/taxable (not taxed) income (although you do offset the payments against tax). It's one of my most significant bills each month. Very happy to pay it, though.
If you don't have any or enough income to afford it, the state insures you, with one of the statutory health insurers and at the same level of care as everyone else has.

It's possibly important to note that Germany is not testing everyone with the typical symptoms - only if you have been in contact with a confirmed case or (at the beginning of all this - no idea how they are doing that now) recently returned from a risk area.

Graphista · 17/04/2020 19:53

@YogaFaker an interesting, disturbing and relatable read.

I am agoraphobic and housebound and have been for years, I have precious little support network and have found the lack of continuity of care particularly in mh services to be a major issue.

That gp and my current gp may be genuinely compassionate and concerned for patients but I've met many who are impatient, compassionless and unfit for the role

In my own circle I am aware of people who've already declared they don't want medical intervention if affected by cv who will very likely die as a result. I also have people who are in situations of domestic abuse, poverty and other contributory factors which mean that contracting cv would be the least of their concerns.

The inequality that has not only been allowed to continue but been INCREASED in this country is an utter disgrace!

As a Scot, I have noticed from my own experience and that of people I know that:

We are not being treated fairly in terms of Health & social care support

We are being treated less than England for supplies of groceries and pharmaceuticals

We are being treated less fairly in terms of dwp and similar support

Yet another reason more and more Scots are becoming supportive of independence.

I was a no last time if we get the opportunity to vote again it will be a definite yes!

Therollockingrogue · 17/04/2020 19:58

It’s really not constructive on these threads for people to keep repeating the myth that Germans are more compliant and better at following rules .
The health system is a million miles apart from ours! Adequately resourced, well funded, very expensive (Germans pay for it), efficient, innovative.... it’s incredible.
I can’t even describe how much you’re cared for after a birth, or if you’re unwell and in the care of the German medical system . No health problem is too small. You go to have your stitches checked and you’ll come away with a course of physio, a prescription for a therapeutic spa... it’s unbelievable.
Of course it is one of the most interventionist systems in the world... it has its downsides too...
But having lived in both places I’d do anything to be there right now rather than in this shit show.

AmIAStone · 17/04/2020 20:25

You sell it really well and I want to move to Germany!
The whole clapping for carers thing whilst is lovely makes me want to shout is to distract us. As people say it’s not comic relief and we shouldn’t be funding the NHS!

EthelMayFergus · 17/04/2020 21:02

Prokup Approximately 40% of your salary is deducted? Is that regardless of your level of income? Because I can't imagine that would be acceptable to someone on a salary of £20,000 in the UK, or on minimum wage, which I think is about £16,000.

CatteStreet · 17/04/2020 21:02

Yes to rollockingrogue. If there's the slightest suspicion that something might be up, off you go to a specialist (of your choice, and I have found getting to specialists easier than accessing GP care!). I was concerned about a lump recently, got seen by the appropriate specialist (after making an appointment myself) within a week, and an ultrasound done and a cyst found there and then. This all on ordinary statutory insurance. It's true that sometimes the interventions are a bit OTT, but there is never the slightest suggestion that it's a waste of resources to see a doctor.

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