Shocked by the news coming from care homes

[YogaFaker]

It seems that really vulnerable old people and those adults with conditions that need round-the-clock care are the sacrificial lambs in this government's inept non policies for dealing with COVID-19.

I find this shocking, really shocking. People are of value whatever their age. Yet the policy seems to have been to let them die, if they contract C-19.

There was a thread here or on aIBU which made claims for the preferential treatment of elderly people in this pandemic. I don't think so. The vulnerable elderly have been totally let down.

Shame on us.

I don’t know how anyone can be surprised by this. Our attitude towards the quality of care homes and the safety of the people in them is one of the biggest mass denials we undertake as a country. And that’s when there isn’t a pandemic!

@NotEverythingIsBlackandwhite Every 85 has an underlying health issue, its called being 85.

ParkheadParadise Its funny how that worked out with that lady, her daughter did walk into the side room later that day, wearing a Nurses uniform.

I had no idea she was working at the other end of the hospital in a different dept and I now work with her.

Apologies for copying a pp but

Well said @Moondust001 I couldn't agree more

We voted for this. We wanted this. We've got this. And now we're complaining.

@diddl

"You can always have help for them at home,"

Have you ever looked into that for someone?
Yes. I helped my cousin get carers in for my aunty in 2018. They came in 4 times per day and then we organised various relatives (mainly ourselves) to visit and look after her in between the times the carers came. I must admit they weren't great.

My cousin did want her mum to live with her but my aunty, having been very independent all her life, wanted to stay in her own home.

@AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter - well said!

I work in a care home , an we have residents from age 45 , so hardly elderly at all. An to us every single resident matters , they are someone's beloved family member, regardless of age or illness .. care staff have always been wrongly looked at as unskilled , unqualified , an this is reflected in our pay. We do the job because we care about people, it's long hours , very emotional , incredibly physical , but it's hugely worthwhile. An it's important. We care for your relatives , your friends , when you cannot. They're not all elderly , and some of our residents have many happy years left ahead. An every single one of our residents is treated with dignity and respect at the end of their lives, regardless of their age. Untill this virus happened , and now some people think it's doesn't matter if it kills " elderly an those who are dying anyways " What's shocked me , an especially on Mumsnet , are the comments about how the vulnerable an elderly , do not seem to matter. Same as care staff. Healthy young care staff are also catching and dying from this virus. It's making them very ill, it's such a huge viral load once in those close personal care situations.. Overflow patients from hospitals are being sent out to care homes , some are not even being tested before leaving there. Many of us also care for our own vulnerable parents and relatives at home too. Many of us are ill with symptoms , yet we aren't getting tested. It's wrong. So wrong.

You can always have help for them at home

If you can find it.
If they will tolerate it.
If they are awake/asleep on a regular pattern so they/the help coincide. Cant give a hot meal or meds to someone who refuses to wake up.
If you can afford it (at least w residential care you can sell the house).

*"You can always have help for them at home,"

Have you ever looked into that for someone?*

24/7 care at home for someone with dementia is out of the price range of most average people. Even with carers allowance. Care homes are cheaper and often better equipped.

Your post is horribly judgemental.

Can’t believe that the op is so selfish to think that their remaining life at the age of 85 is worth more than a childs.

Btw - the NHS already makes decisions based on quality of life. Google QALY criteria and how the NHS use that to determine treatments and new drug protocols. The COVID crisis is just amplifying and publicising this.

Every 85 has an underlying health issue, its called being 85
I don't agree that age necessarily means you have an underlying health issue. What about the increase we have in centenarians in the UK - there is no reason why at 85 they would automatically be unhealthy.
A 106 year old came out of hospital yesterday having survived Covid-19:

www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1269267/coronavirus-uk-connie-titchen-covid-19-uk-outbreak-latest-news/amp

Of course being 85 is an underlying health issue.... Your body is older and can't recover itself!

A person of 85 may have 10 years of good quality life left, sadly not every child has the same. Which is why people are prioritised for treatment by the likelihood of a positive outcome not some strange "who should be thrown out of the balloon basket" assessment of worth. So oftentimes a younger person will be offered treatment rather than an older person, but not necessarily or automatically.

The care homes deaths are being reported as ‘suspected’ ‘likely’ Covid 19, would it not be better to have confirmed tested cases? People in care homes will have other health issues, care homes do have expected deaths but I think labelling every death in a care home as Covid 19 related is scaremongering.

Lifeisshortandbitterswet thank you for posting, the carers that looked after my relative really did see their work as a vocation, to care for people at their most vulnerable, and did see everyone as valuable and individual- I think this sector is so often overlooked (not every carer was a saint, there were a couple who obviously did the job for the money, which is fine as long as they work properly).

There are several issues here: a) by not testing, it's spreading more than it needed to b) the virus doesn't know that you think Doris who is 96 with dementia would be better off dead, but Fred who is 81 and doesn't have dementia has another good decade of enjoyable life, it will kill both c) staff have been put at high risk due to lack of PPE, viral load and d) care homes rarely have access to high quality palliative care and drugs, so dying this way could be extremely distressing more so than it needs to be.

This was foreseeable, reports have been coming out of Italy and Spain about high deaths in care homes, but yet again, the government is moving about a month too late to suddenly realise, yes, care staff need PPE too. Really?

Can’t believe that the op is so selfish to think that their remaining life at the age of 85 is worth more than a childs You're right not to believe it, she didn't say this.

I don't think many, if any, people think there should be aggressive treatment for 80 year olds with dementia. I think many, most, people think sending sick people into nursing /care home from hospital without testing them for Covid19 smacks of deliberately infecting homes endangering residents and staff.

Elaine84 I hope your husband is OK and it doesn't spread to the rest of the family.

I don’t know why people are fixating on icu and ventilators. ICU is never full of frail 80/90year olds from care homes. It isn’t in their best interests to be ventilated so it’s highly unlikely for them to be admitted to icu even in normal times. So the question of choosing between whether to admit a child or an 85 year old to icu simply doesn’t arise.

Under normal circumstances people from care homes are admitted to hospital if they have respiratory problems, given oxygen, fluids, antibiotics if appropriate etc.

Are care home residents being given oxygen if they’re not taken to hospital?

And yes, if they’re admitting patients of the same age who don’t live in care homes, we should be asking why. And why they’re not protecting the other residents by allowing the ones with covid to stay there.

Of course the staff are at just as much risk as NHS workers treating patients in hospital, especially if they don’t have enough PPE.

Is there a different between what happens in nursing homes, where some of the staff are trained nurses, and residential homes, where none of them are?

Of course being 85 is an underlying health issue.... Your body is older and can't recover itself!
The discussion was regarding the choice between putting a child or an 85-year old on a ventilator. In that scenario neither can recover themselves so your comment is irrelevant.

People in care homes will have other health issues, care homes do have expected deaths but I think labelling every death in a care home as Covid 19 related is scaremongering. I don't think anyone has done that have they?

@NotEverythingIsBlackandwhite The underlying health issue is being 85!

The healthiest 85 year old (already a few years past average life expectancy) is 100% more 'unhealthy' than your average child. Vision and hearing decline, cognitive decline, cardiovascular disease, reduced strength, agility, weakness, arthritis, bone density, diabetes, reduced immune system, reduced muscle mass, reduced bowel function and on and on and on.

There is not a single cell in the body that does not decline during the natural ageing process.

Which is why children with COVID typically have it mildly but it's quickly killing most of the elderly people infected.

And why if a child became seriously ill with COVID, there are thousands of times more likely to recover with medical assistance than an 85 year old would be.

Are care home residents being given oxygen if they’re not taken to hospital? I can say I have an elderly relative in a care home that has a confirmed outbreak. My relative got sick, classic symptoms, but has only been seen by a doctor on a video link. I know she hasn't had oxygen but don't know if that is because it isn't needed or isn't available.

Agree with those saying that we've focused too much on keeping life going at all costs, rather than quality of life. The pandemic has exposed the problems, with so many assuming wrongly that medical intervention/hospitalisation is always the right thing.

This BMJ article says:
"For decades, doctors have performed CPR even when they expect it to be futile. Reasons are unclear but may include reassurance for doctors that they have “done everything possible”
www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1387.full?ijkey=Tie6qltQDYdMGzl&keytype=ref

Maybe this overtreatment with CPR is what we should actually be questioning. Even without Covid, we should ask whether this kind of intervention is really in a patients interests in many cases when survival rates are low and trauma suffered high.

For the downsides of CPR: www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-nhs-death-do-not-resuscitate-hospitals-a9456336.html

Non covid deaths are often far from pleasant. I've had two friends whose parents died recently in care homes. One of them essentially starved to death - took over a week. They tried to make it a peaceful process but how does it benefit anyone to have such a protracted death - and this followed years of suffering with dementia? At least they were able to stay in the home, and not hospitalized for active interventions as happened with the other friend's dad.

The truth is everyone has to die at some point and we should be thinking about how we want that to happen in an era of very long life expectancies (but not necessarily of high quality life) and almost unlimited possible medical interventions (but finite resources). I think there should be much greater focus on palliative care/quality of life and a good and dignified death, and that assisted dying should be permitted for those who want it.

For my parent with dementia it's not the least bad option-it's the bloody best one!

Likewise for my father with dementia. Prior to him going into the care home he attacked me, attacked members of the public, tried to enter the homes of his neighbours whom he thought were living in his house, nearly set fire to his house. His violent outbursts are not manageable for me as i have to work. His Care home is the best place, safest place for him.

Before lockdown I visited often. He gets good care and is not on his own.

I have been asked if he gets ill would the family want him to go in to hospital or receive treatment at the home. As a dementia patient hospital is an unknown frightening place. If he can be treated gently in a place he knows by people he knows, keeping them as safe as possible, it would be the kindest thing for him. I know for a fact he would also want this. He would not want CPR or to be intubated. After my mum died we discussed his wishes before dementia hit.

It was pretty obvious that I was referring to recovery after being ventilated. A five year old has many many years ahead of them (assuming they were previously healthy) wheras an 85 year old has had the best of their life.

I can't get my head round people that wouldn't ventilate the child over the 85 year old.

We need more focus on palliative care and a dignified end. We need to stop treating everyone for everything to give them a couple more months. I hope these discussions can start now.