Shocked by the news coming from care homes

[YogaFaker]

It seems that really vulnerable old people and those adults with conditions that need round-the-clock care are the sacrificial lambs in this government's inept non policies for dealing with COVID-19.

I find this shocking, really shocking. People are of value whatever their age. Yet the policy seems to have been to let them die, if they contract C-19.

There was a thread here or on aIBU which made claims for the preferential treatment of elderly people in this pandemic. I don't think so. The vulnerable elderly have been totally let down.

Shame on us.

I can't imagine what it would do to an elderly patient with dementia to be taken from somewhere they know to a big aircraft hanger like building being nursed by people they don't know.

The nightingale is an insurance policy for when and if the hospitals are overwhelmed, if it were full of elderly patients who had next to no chance of surviving ventilation what do we do with the rest of the population who have a chance?

I hope when I'm 85 and there's one ventilator and the choice is me or a child, I offer it to the child. Because I'm not a selfish prick and I will have lived my life.

I've seen relatives die with dementia in a home. Anything to bring their passing forward is a blessing. Keeping people alive is not kind in plenty of cases. I agree with the PP who said that this country is obsessed with quantity not quality of life.

"care homes are often the least bad option for all concerned."

Oh please-just stop!

For my parent with dementia it's not the least bad option-it's the bloody best one!

But I hope that when I'm an 85 year old, and need medical intervention, I don't get treated by the people who think that my life is worth less than a child's. My life is worth everything to me.

It's not about how much your life is worth, it's about outcomes. Medicine works in a very utilitarian way.

It's why there is lots of money put into breast cancer research for example, but hardly any put into childhood cancers. Because breast cancer is very common and childhood cancer is relatively rare, so from a 'saving number of lives for the longest time' point of view, breast cancer comes out on top.

Again I know Covid isn't comparable to cancer, but as I said, medicine works on outcomes, not on value of life.

For my parent with dementia it's not the least bad option-it's the bloody best one!

This

People are saying how the elderly are 'lambs to the slaughter' but what about the staff?

Its definately about the Staff as well.

Some hotels are now being used for patients that would be in a community hospital. They are using the regular hotel cleaning staff to carry on with the housekeeping

I am not sure housekeeping staff are able to deal with the infection control of a disease properly without training and certain products.

I have been a housekeeper in a hotel & a Bupa care home & privately cleaned houses. I am not slating people that clean at all.

Do you realise that a person like that wouldnt survive ventilation? All it would do would be cause them agony and pain and suffering and then it would be unsuccessful. If by some miracle it was "successful" and they survived, they likely have damaged and scarred lungs making breathing even harder than it was before. Not to mention increased pain.
What about non-invasive ventilation though? Surely they could be taken into hospital and put onto standard oxygen or CPAP? Fluids to hydrate them, antibiotics if they have pneumonia?

On another point, I don't think anyone else can judge someone else's quality of life. If people are happy and still have the remotest interest in life then there is a quality to it.

Care homes are not just for the elderly. Adults with learning disabilities, or physical disabilities also can live in care homes. There are care homes for children. There are care services for people with mental health needs. And they have all been forgotten about.

For me it’s more about care to ease suffering at that stage rather than invasive action.

I don’t know if they do that in care homes.

People would soon be complaining if previously healthy people in their 20s-60s were dying at home of COVID because ITU was full of people in their 80s/90s; many with dementia and or significant physical health problems anyway, the overwhelming majority just waiting to die there and the tiny, tiny number that do survive go back to their care homes to die within months anyway.

You're the only person i've ever heard of OP that if faced with the awful decision to be able to save only one life; a child or an 85 year old, would struggle to prioritise one or the other

Thank you NotEverything

And what about oxygen @Bloomburger should elderly patients be denied that as well? It can make for a less terrifying death, as well as helping to preserve life in quite a high number of cases.

I know that I would not want my life to get to the stage of dementia my relatives did. I would rather die early than suffer through that.

I'm not judging their life. But I don't want to get like that.

Hopefully this country will implement right to die laws before I get to that stage.

But that's not the situation we are faced with @Somebodysringingabell. The situation we are faced with is that the under 60s are being treated (after a fashion) and the elderly in care homes are being casually infected and being left to die.

Herc,

Totally agree.

Yes @toothfairy73 I was struck by that, listening to the reports on the Today programme this morning.

Yeah, who gets to the age of 85 and still thinks that their life should be prioritised over a child?!

In the care home my mum was in for 6 years the staff's idea of infection control was shocking.
Towards the end of her life when she was bed ridden I once walked in and the smell of urine was awful, removing her duvet both her and the sheets were soaked in urine. When I confronted them they said mums on end of life care now we didn't want to disturb her😥.
God help the residents now, last week when I passed 5 of the staff were outside smoking together like they normally do at every opportunity.

Never thought I would say with but I'm glad my mum died 2 years ago with her family around her ( my sister and I moved into the home for her last 16 days and looked after her ourselves) than be living now with the threat of Convid 19.

@Isadora2007 the staff are also in regular, possibly prolonged contact with infected residents with little or no PPE and so are more at risk of higher viral dose/load & therefore at greater risk than me popping to Tesco once a week for example

What about non-invasive ventilation though? Surely they could be taken into hospital and put onto standard oxygen or CPAP? Fluids to hydrate them, antibiotics if they have pneumonia

It depends on each case. You cannot make blanket rules in medicine.
When my father had late stage dementia his GP talked to me for about 30 mins on the phone and he was lovely. We discussed treatment and he told me that if my dad got a UTI they would treat it. If he got a chest infection, they wouldnt. The reason for that was that he was end stage dementia and his prognosis was poor. My father had also told me years before that if he ever got to that state in life he wouldnt want to keep living he would want to slip away so it was a very straight forward choice to make. I respected the wishes of my dad and the advice of his doctor.

In your scenario, alot would depend upon the individual involved, their wishes (if they had been made prior to their illness), what their prognosis was, the family's feelings, the doctor's advice etc
I have worked in the NHS and all I can say is, I have never once met someone who told me "if I get elderly, frail, and I am in pain and have dementia I would like to go on living for as long as is possible". Noone has ever said that. They usually say the opposite. Few people want to linger on for as long as possible with dementia and pain.

I find it unreal that someone wouldn’t value a child’s life more than an elderly who’s lived a long life already when giving ICU care. I don’t understand how someone could even question that. Ideally all could get equal treatment but if the resources are lacking it’s an easy choice to make. I do think the elderly should get access to oxygen and any care that would minimise suffering.
In Sweden they won’t even get that but are advised to open a window in place for oxygen. They die suffocating in terror. This is in a country that prides itself being on the forefront of humanitarianism. If you’re elderly, not so much.

This is going to sound very harsh and I say this as someone who’s Mum lived out the last 6 years of her life in a care home with dementia, last 18 months in End Stage.

In the natural order of things, people who start to have major difficulties fending for their own basic needs would naturally die off. If you can’t either physically or mentally hunt & gather, whatever your age, you die basically.

Let’s remind ourselves that this virus is an entirely natural thing. We humans are the ones doing unnatural things by keeping people alive long after their usual sell by. Of course we can’t acknowledge this, it’s taboo, because it’s not the hallmark of a civilised society apparently.

It’s ridiculous & given the comparative lack of younger tax payers & the looming 2nd great depression, totally unsustainable.

Right to die needs to be brought in after this as an absolute minimum.

Is it a fact that oxygen eases suffering? I would have thought that, if you were dying, you would go through the same stages, just arrive at them later due to oxygen, so it may even prolong the suffering.

However, I don’t know this and am sure that there is someone on here who does.

care homes are often the least bad option for all concerned."

For my parent with dementia it's not the least bad option-it's the bloody best one!
@larrygrylls stated "often" not always.

In some circumstances it may be in the best interests but I agree with much of what they said.

Unless I was totally incapable of physically looking after them, I wouldn't have let my parents go into a care home. They said they would never want to go into one and I would have honoured their wishes.

I think, we should learn from cultures where people actually take care of their own parents and don't put them into care homes unnecessarily. You can always have help for them at home, in an environment where they live around family.

@larrygrylls yes it does, which is why its routinely offered to patients with reduced lung function in non- corona times. And I can tell you from personal experience that struggling for breath is utterly terrifying and exhausting.