Until June?!

[Woman31]

Iv read today that these strict rules will be in place until June.

I’m going to go insane before then. How are people going to manage? Surely it can’t be that long? China didn’t take that long ?

My anxiety is so bloody high 😩

@TestBank I agree

The country (well, England) only a few months ago voted for a party that did not value the NHS so the voters didn’t either. Now it’s a colossal mess and the “cure” causing huge problems too.

test

Will you go to hospital if you get sick and require oxygen? If so, there's your point. Because you want there to be enough ventilators and you're planning to use a doctor, who has a right to treat you under humane conditions. If you're 'We're all fucked' attitude involves dying apathetically at home, along with whoever you've infected, then it is a free country.

We're not delaying deaths though. You've got that wrong. People who don't die now will have a greater chance of living if they get sick later on. Why? Because ventilators are being manufactured now and they'll be ready later. Because treatments are being tested and trialled every day and progress is being made but they're not ready yet. Because NHS staff who are having to self isolate at home will be at work taking care of you in a short time, when they've been tested. And because a vaccine is coming and not everyone will get this virus.

Interesting fact. Did you realise that if a sick person didn't transmit the virus to anyone, the virus would have a lower transmission rate and would eventually die out in large areas, leaving pockets of infection that could be controlled with stringent tracing and testing?

Did you know that some of the sick people in the top of that peak you don't think it's worth flattening would like to live and have the same right to be cared for within our society as you think you would, if you became ill?

Will I go to hospital? Probably not. Not all that much point is there? Not in a few weeks time anyway. Would I take my kids?'yes. They are extremely unlikely to need to go though. Would I take my mum? Definitely not (handy hint: she's not going to be welcome there in a few weeks anyway, care will be rationed regardless of lockdown or not, we will be overwhelmed incredibly quickly) She doesn't want to go anyway.

It's too late for contact testing in the UK now. Not that we have any testing kit of course. Our lockdown is not effective enough for it to produce the conditions we would need to be able to press reset and start up with contact testing and tracking once it lifts. Hopefully other places such as NZ will have good success with their policy though, where they locked down earlier.

@TestBank @Madein1995 my thoughts exactly. Great points. Sad to see people turning on each other.

test

Of course, if you and your families don't take up ventilators or NHS care in the event you develop COVID-19 and you take whatever measures are necessary to ensure you don't expose anyone else to the virus (you must of course assume you have it, just like everyone else) then do as you like.

You have absolutely no way to know what is or is not possible now for the UK in terms of making progress with containment. The fact you're pontificating about it speaks volumes because experts are the first to say there are no definites in this game.

Generally, if a house is burning down, you do what you can to save the family trapped inside. You don't walk away on the basis that there's a water shortage, the family were going to die at some point anyway, it costs *k every time the fire brigade is called which is money that could be used for extra bins in Basingstoke, you'd probably be unsuccessful, you can't see the family in question so you feel a bit meh about them, and people die in house fires every year. We do what we can.

There's a kind of fatalistic indifference that jostles up against ruthless pragmatism on one side and rank self-interest on the other. It's nothing new. It's the kind of ideology that doesn't send vaccines to developing nations on the basis that they wouldn't know how to control their populations without epidemics and food shortages. I've seen it. These are not people who will sit at home to safeguard someone else's sick child, at least until more drugs have been trialled.

It's realism. Noone will sit at home to safeguard someone else's elderly relative (they are the at risk group) if it's a question of sitting at home for two years while the economy burns (ok, almost noone, there's always someone on mn who swears they would live in a tree on beans for a decade if it helped)
Anyway, it doesn't matter, you'll all be told to go to work and save lives in a maximum of a month's time (yes, educated guess).

Now the latest is they will put a stop on daily exercise if a small minority continue to break the stay at home rules. Apparently people have been sunbathing in public spaces, tbh I can't see that they will be spreading it by sitting on a field but then again I'm not a scientist..

I'm not going to tell other people how they should think/feel, but for me I just have to get on with it so we can avoid many people being seriously ill/dying. I've already lost one lovely person to the virus this week, I really don't want to loose anyone else I know.

"There are 20,000 deaths from flu each year and almost no attention at all is paid to this."

FFS not this again. The vulnerable people are vaccinated against the flu and there is nothing more that could have been done for those that die. There is as yet no vaccine for covid 19, PLUS its about 40 times more deadly. Can we drop all this flu shit now please.

test It's been two weeks. Not two years. No one is suggesting you'll be in lockdown for two years. You're complaining about two weeks.

In response to your audacious comment that the elderly are the at risk group (writing off the vulnerable groups mentioned as if the elderly matter less), I draw your attention to yesterday's headlines. Which I think you already know about. A child died. A child of five. You're staying at home for a number of weeks to protect other children like this. Thank heavens the policy makers have more integrity and compassion, or at least feel obliged to behave as if they do.

And I give you, yet again, a simple picture to help in understanding

2 weeks and almost a million more benefit claims, yes that's sustainable

I stay home a few more weeks ... then what? ... stay home til when? That vaccine is a loooooong way off so that's the two year wait. Who is paying for that?

It isn't sustainable beyond a few more, essentially pointless, weeks (pointless as we are going to end up pretending we are not admitting defeat and just going back to living our lives and letting it spread - as there is no other option unless we set the economy on fire - check out pictures of the Great Depression)
They'll just give you some bullshit and send you all back to work, aparr from those in the at risk categories one hopes.

I want to be able to see my DD again but at the moment she is front line NHS and will phone and watsapp us but that is all, she is scared and seeing things that she did not expect to see, if the lockdown is extended she will be exposed for a longer time to a killer pandemic which fills me with dread, but she wants to prolong peoples lives, the rest of her family are healthy but she and her collegues attempt to prolong the lives of strangers for as long as required.

I haven't read the whole thread but would like to say that the politicians are following the advice from the experts that are at the forefront of their field, as are the doctors, nurses and everyone else in the front line. The arguments about right or wrong are for the future, the battle that is being fought is for the current time and I feel that following guidelines for as long as is required is the least that i can do for my DD.

Fucking snowflakes. Stay at home for a few weeks to save people and you moan like you are facing the death sentence.

our doctors, nurses and staff are at hospital without much ppe and risking your life saving other and some muppets moaning about their fucking ‘rights’.

Goodness - very compelling argument (not)

I think the question is...what's the alternative? If the government just lifted all the restrictions no one would be able to go back to their routine anyway, the virus has seen to that. We'd be living in chaos. The economy would collapse, the nhs would collapse. So many would be dying in such a short space of time. Many people would refuse to leave their homes including key workers.

We need the govt and wider society to be the most competent they can be in finding ways to handle this through treatments, testing etc that can allow us to loosen lockdown as soon as possible, and to do all they can to support those worst affected by it.

But given where we are now (inc mistakes already made) I don't know what the immediate alternative to lockdown is.

test

You're just not listening. We've explained that running the NHS into the ground isn't sustainable either, doctors trying to manage an impossibly high peak isn't sustainable, we've listed the things that may be different later on in terms of treatment, rested staff, more equipment and we've pointed out that you can't, from a moral point of view, martyr a vital group of diligence health care workers because the other option was expensive, boring and you didn't fancy staying indoors. We've pointed out how expensive it would be to have a series of uncontrollable surges and have explained other ways that could be tried to get a handle on the numbers and force them down over the medium term. We've pointed out that many of the people who are at risk of getting Covid-19 are also at risk in a recession and it is nothing like as simple as either or. We've pointed out the obscene ethical position that the UK would hold of they shruged their shoulders when children with underlying vulnerabilities die because it's boring being in.

You don't want to know. I can argue with logic but I can't help someone who is against the idea of changing your position because you actually like the one you have, whether it's right or wrong.

I suggest you read the post above from a frightened mother whose daughter is on the line, doing everything she can to save lives. If you don't observe lockdown, you place her life and those like her at risk. Too many patients in an uncontrollable surge and she's exposed to high viral counts, exhausted, in chaotic conditions with adequate PPE. But what do you care. You want to get out and about...

"inadequate*

https://apple.news/AjmsOZlJZRheY-K97hPZRlw

this insane

It's not that I am not listening, it's that you don't want to see it is essentially too late for any of the actions you want to work without causing even more deaths through economic mayhem. The time to push for total lockdown and testing was at least a month ago, more likely six weeks for some actions. I actually sent my staff home on work from home as much as possible two weeks before official lockdown and reorganised rotas so those with health conditions that made them vulnerable didn't have to come in at all. And I thought that was a bit late in the day! I really tried, but as someone on here pointed out, I don't get to influence government policy. I hope you all tried too, and prepared.

Look at the current lockdown. More holes than a sieve. Your government is not trying its best. Window dressing. Possibly just incompetence but possibly because they also recognize it is too late and just want to look like they are doing something. Seriously, what's the point of that? It's utterly devastating the economy. At this point we have to count our blessings.
Children are pretty much unscathed
25% of people will be asymptomatic
It mostly affects the old
Well thank fuck frankly, because as we are all going to catch it, and fairly soon, at least it isn't ripping through the young like most illnesses or taking out the young adults like Spanish flu. For the species, this is good news

It may be good news for the species, but as one of few species that actually gives a fuck (though some MNers' attitudes to anyone dying of Covid as long as it's not them makes you wonder) about trying not to have its members dying dreadful, undignified deaths in a place, and at a time when they didn't have to, it's a bit rotten.

It may be doozy for the species to get rid of all those 80 year olds. Have you asked their relatives if they agree?

No point getting upset with me about it. It's a worldwide virus with no cure coming along any time soon. Lockdown is not a cure either and eventually everyone more or less is going to be exposed to it. My preference of course is community supported extreme self isolation of our most vulnerable who choose that. There isn't actually much other option now anyway, just waiting for the rest of you to catch up on that. Six weeks max lockdown.

We actually closed a week before official lockdown, so I just realised I was doing this stuff three weeks before official lockdown,not two. Yes, people did think I was mad, and were quite insulting about it, but I didn't want to put staff with health conditions at risk. Too many of you are too bloody slow to realise what is going on and act. It's too late now to be crying over spilt milk frankly. As a nation we chose our path and your time to complain about it was at least a month ago, two months if you wanted the nhs to have ppe and ventilators in time.

I think the problem here is it’s human nature to want to be able to do something to change the course of all of this. The apple news link (which by the way doesn’t work) took me to a incredibly moving account by a woman who had to accept that she wouldn’t receive treatment due to her conditions and she wanted to die at home. But she then went on to say she had proven her worthiness of being alive. But we are fighting a virus, a virus whose sole purpose is to live and replicate and there is not much we can do about that.
And we should care about our elderly and not want them to go but we should also stop to wonder if we haven’t created a society so scared of death and the next step that we hold onto life far more than we should, putting in interventions to eek out life to it’s very painful restrictive end.
We have become so fearful and so believing that there is nothing but this life and so self centred in our pursuit that because of that we should do want we want to the earth because we are almighty and fight death to the very end we have lost our spirituality and a little bit of our soul

And then the other unspoken bit that we are so keen to be saved from this and ventilated we are putting others lives at risk those who desperately want to save as many people as they can they spend hours turning the bodies of those who probably can’t be saved anyway