To feel sorry for Boris Johnson

[LonerGirl]

I know people didn’t have a high opinion of him, tbf neither did I before this, but he’s doing his best. He’s doing what experts are advising him to do. He’s ordered temporary hospitals to be built & thousands of ventilators, asked for help through NHS volunteering.

I think he’s coping okay despite his wife being pregnant too, now he’s unwell himself.

What are your opinions?

I don’t want any fights or arguments I’m
Just curious to what others are thinking

Sadly you’re completely right cendrillon

So, given we have limited resources, would you rather NHS resource was spent on mass testing at this stage, or actually treating those who have it?

We don't have limited resources. Sunak has sworn that the NHS will be given whatever it needs.

It's not a choice between the two, both are crucial. Testing allows frontline staff who test negative to continue working (at least until the next test) and will allow accurate mapping of the spread so that resources can be focused exactly where they are needed.

What is really wrong with accepting most people will get it and focusing on those who are most seriously affected by it?

That was Johnson's first plan - then they realised that allowing it to spread out of control would result in such huge numbers of acute case the NHS wouldn't be able to cope. How did you manage to miss that?

Thesis + antithesis = synthesis.

I'll be the antithesis ...

Some people really need to put aside their prior prejudices and think about what was and is actually possible in practice

is that a note to yourself?

we've got a hugely depleted NHS and a dithering incompetent pm. you dont have to be either a corbyn fan or a trump fan to see that the outcome is going to be more disastrous than it otherwise might have been.

The plan still is for most people to get it, albeit more slowly? Flatten the curve? Unless a vaccine/medication can be made first.

A lockdown isn’t going to kill this virus, just slow it’s spread

We don't have limited resources. Sunak has sworn that the NHS will be given whatever it needs.

FFS, as I said before, you need to think about what is possible in practice

You can’t just throw money at a problem and magic up enough trained medical staff to both carry out mass testing and to treat the sick

Which would you prefer to focus on?

we've got a hugely depleted NHS and a dithering incompetent pm. you dont have to be either a corbyn fan or a trump fan to see that the outcome is going to be more disastrous than it otherwise might have been.

What on earth is the point of this relentless ‘coulda, woulda, shoulda’

We had the chance of an alternative government just over 3 months ago - it didn’t happen, for good reason, so we have to manage with what we have

Seriously, so we can't discuss how Boris is dealing with this crisis? Or we can't say anything negative?

Which is it?

FFS, as I said before, you need to think about what is possible in practice

Well, luckily, it's not dependent on you and what you believe. What is possible 'in practice' is to have those things in place that I previously listed.

You can’t just throw money at a problem and magic up enough trained medical staff to both carry out mass testing and to treat the sick You don't require the same staff to carry out tests as you do for ICU. There are a great many staff trained to take bloods.

We had the chance of an alternative government just over 3 months ago - it didn’t happen, for good reason

The only 'good reason' for voting tory at the last election was if you wanted to Get Brexit Done.

I'll be willing to bet my last loo roll that a lot of people are regretting that decision or if not yet, will be very soon.

Clearly there are people who just think it’s all the governments fault.

I’m not sure what you think that achieves or what you genuinely believe any other government could have done, because, funnily enough, no one ever says that, other than to list impractical solutions, they just slag off what they think is wrong

All these armchair experts really should be knocking on the door of number 10 tomorrow - oh, except they’ve got the perfect excuse because they can’t go out 🤔

I think all this has shown exactly how pointless Brexit is.

We are a tiny island in the grand scheme of things but this virus has proved we are actually all in this together and isolating ourselves is simply not possible

oh bear, i really dont get your attitude here.

its being handled very badly. we're entitled to say this. we've given loads of examples.

why on earth are you determined to shut us up?

helmet, I’m asking what you actually think could have been done differently and would have achieved a different outcome?

Do you honestly believe we missed out on ventilators because Boris didn’t read an e-mail?

Do you really think our government is so primitive that that is even possible?

other than to list impractical solutions

They are not 'impractical solutions', they are standard measures used to successfully deal with a pandemic. There's nothing magic about them and the government could have at least had them in place to a greater degree if they had prepared for this.

They chose not to so of course the blame is theirs and people are right to criticise them and hold them to account. jesus

Do you really think the NHS would be in a better position under a labour government? The country would be bankrupt all over again. The service isn't underfunded it's just very very badly run. As someone who worked in it for years I've seen the mismanagement of finances. The waste on an everyday basis. The apathy, the constant, 'We've always done it like this' even if it's costing money and time. It's like running into a wall every day.

Nurses who work their way up to run departments and are then given huge budgets to manage without and sort of experience or qualifications to do so.

Nurses refusing full time contracts but then taking on bank hours which cost an absolute fortune when they really aren't, compared to the average worker, poorly paid.

The funding initiatives for new hospitals negotiated by Labour is just the tip of the iceberg of what would be happening if they were in charge.

As for Johnson no one can do better than their best. He's taken advice from the same experts which would have been advising a labour government, would they have just ignored that advice?

Here, this was linked to from another thread...*From a junior doctor in a London Hospital. Name removed for reasons of privacy.

I had never cried at work before this week. I have now broken that multiple times. What is happening is terrifying.

Senior doctors, who are usually the ones providing calmness, look terrified. The numbers we are seeing, the young ages we are seeing and the speeds that they deteriorate are terrifying. This is killing people in their 40s, 50s, 60s.

A patient, who was not on oxygen and smiled as I talked to them about the weather yesterday, is now dead.

Relatives can’t come and visit due to infection risk. So patients are dying completely alone and scared.

Government ministers have said repeatedly that the NHS is prepared for this. That is a sick joke. This government has continually ravaged the NHS so that it can barely drag itself through winter.

• There is a complete lack of appropriate protective equipment in many hospitals including my own.

• People are using protective glasses from DIY shops or donated from local schools.

• We have HALF the number of ICU beds per capita as Italy. Italy currently has greater than 10% mortality in affected cases. That is NOT a good sign for us.

• We are already having to ration ventilators and high flow oxygen devices and are basically having to pick who has the best chance of living when thinking of this equipment.

• Lots of people who needed it have not been able to have life saving equipment because we simply don’t have enough. This means they will likely die.

It is also terrifying that this is predicted to be only the very start. The peak is estimated for 2-3 weeks time.

We already have huge staff shortages because people are dropping like flies. Some of these staff may well never come back.

Other staff are working every day they can to plug the gaps. Some have collapsed at work due to exhaustion. What happens when these staff also get sick?

And what makes me so ANGRY is that all of this was preventable.

• A report back in 2012 highlighted inadequate ICU beds and specialist equipment in the NHS and OUR GOVERNMENT DID NOTHING

• Another report in 2017 said we did not have adequate protective equipment in case of a flu pandemic but the GOVERNMENT DECIDED IT WAS TOO EXPENSIVE TO BUY IT

• In January, when the cases were spreading in China we had warning, we could see this would be an absolute disaster and THE GOVERNMENT DID NOTHING. No preparation, no purchasing of equipment.

• When it arrived in Italy, and people were dying in droves, THE GOVERNMENT DID NOTHING

• Eventually, after we had almost 1000 cases, our moronic PM mumbled some vague suggestions on national TV shortly after saying that he would still be seeing his mother on Mother’s Day and after his 79 year old father appeared on This Morning telling everyone they should still go to the pub if needed.

This isn’t funny it should be CRIMINAL. This complete pigheaded “Britishness” and the “keep calm and carry on” attitude has directly led to deaths and will lead to countless more.

I don’t blame the public at all for not listening at first after the media and the politicians downplayed the situation for nearly 2 months.

OUR GOVERNMENT HAS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY FAILED US DID NOTHING and they were always going to. They made their allegiances very clear early on during this pandemic: that the economy is more important than lives. Lives are clearly cheap and the Tories are now showing us how little they value each and every one of ours.

For god's sake! Can we take this seriously?? Because it is!!!!*

I genuinely don't understand why you are repeatedly ascusing people of following a narrative, when you seem absolutely stuck in your own peculiar one that seems to be: Don't criticise Boris, he's doing fine. Can you not hear yourself?

We CAN criticise Boris and nope, he's NOT doing fine.

Saying, 'Oh Trump would be no better' really doesn't constitute an argument here. We all know Trump is diabolical.

And no, I don't think we missed out on ventilators because of a 'missed message' - We dropped out the EU procurement scheme and failed to communicate with our suppliers. Unfortunately, that is going to have massive repercussions on patient care.

As for Johnson no one can do better than their best. He's taken advice from the same experts which would have been advising a labour government, would they have just ignored that advice?

Well Boris did.

What if it wasn’t ventilators but something else that was needed?

What, you mean like nursing staff, or hospital beds? Both of which could be planned for.

I think he’s been doing a great job. closes my eyes and waits for the blast

What, you mean like nursing staff, or hospital beds? Both of which could be planned for.

As I’ve said before, the prejudices on this thread make sensible conversation impossible

Do you honestly think we could run the NHS with it permanently having the capacity to deal with a global pandemic within its stride?

www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/downing-street-calls-election-gurus-overhaul-coronavirus-comms/1678511?bulletin=campaign_agencies_bulletin

Some people on this thread might be interested in the above.

LonerGirl did you only just join Mumsnet or changed your name especially for this thread?

There is a difference between preparing for a pandemic and cutting and cutting to the bone, so that there is no slack at all in the system.

The service isn't underfunded it's just very very badly run

^^ This

I’ve seen first hand examples of ridiculously high specification on things like paint or lightbulbs during refurbs, and it’s all because someone’s mate runs the company it would be coming from

The other massive problem is people misusing the service

I know people who are straight down to A&E for every cough and sniff

I do hope that, when we get to the other side of this, we take a long hard look at what the real underlying problems are

www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2020/03/pandemic-has-exposed-fatal-weakness-our-health-and-social-care

This is an interesting article by the usually more right wing paper. Lots to learn about how nhs and social care policy has been run so they can have the capacity to rise to this sort of challenge.