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To feel sorry for Boris Johnson

325 replies

LonerGirl · 28/03/2020 21:13

I know people didn’t have a high opinion of him, tbf neither did I before this, but he’s doing his best. He’s doing what experts are advising him to do. He’s ordered temporary hospitals to be built & thousands of ventilators, asked for help through NHS volunteering.

I think he’s coping okay despite his wife being pregnant too, now he’s unwell himself.

What are your opinions?

I don’t want any fights or arguments I’m
Just curious to what others are thinking

OP posts:
Peregrina · 29/03/2020 18:30

Nurses who work their way up to run departments and are then given huge budgets to manage without and sort of experience or qualifications to do so.

But then if we employ admin staff to do those jobs, there is criticism for having too much admin and not enough front line staff.

AuldAlliance · 29/03/2020 18:31

Do you honestly believe we missed out on ventilators because Boris didn’t read an e-mail?
Do you really think our government is so primitive that that is even possible?

No, they didn't want to take part in an EU procurement plan because of getting Brexit done.
But the gvmt think people are "primitive" enough to believe their feeble excuse about missed emails.

Peregrina · 29/03/2020 18:32

The New Statesman isn't right wing. You may be thinking of The Spectator there.

Theworldisfullofgs · 29/03/2020 18:35

I’ve seen first hand examples of ridiculously high specification on things like paint or lightbulbs during refurbs, and it’s all because someone’s mate runs the company it would be coming from

If this is really what you have seen then that's technically fraud and you should report it under the counterfraud policy. If you dont that also makes you party to it.
Most work has to be tendered...
I must have worked in odd places as I never saw that in the 20 years and 5 different nhs trusts that I worked in.

Bearbehind · 29/03/2020 18:35

auld I simply don’t believe that our government wouldn’t have exploited that situation if it had been possible

We are in a transition period which clearly applies only when it suits us!

This is an example of when it would have suited us so they’d have done it

It’s just a good story to claim otherwise

Theworldisfullofgs · 29/03/2020 18:36

peregirina yes you are right, apologies

LittleRootie · 29/03/2020 18:36

The other massive problem is people misusing the service. I know people who are straight down to A&E for every cough and sniff

Really? They might go there but i'll bet they don't get seen.

I don't know anyone who does that, in fact I know of quite a few people who haven't bothered going to A&E for serious problems because they can't bear the waiting times.

Bearbehind · 29/03/2020 18:39

Really? They might go there but i'll bet they don't get seen.

Of course they get seen

When have you ever heard of an A&E receptionist telling some to fuck off and go home

They don’t have that authority, and wouldn’t want it

If you turn up at A&E, you get seen, whether you need it or not

LittleRootie · 29/03/2020 18:42

Of course they get seen

Bollocks do they. They will be triaged and sit and wait til they give up.

Well, that's what would happen if they existed.

Bearbehind · 29/03/2020 18:42

If this is really what you have seen then that's technically fraud and you should report it under the counterfraud policy. If you dont that also makes you party to it.

A bit more idealism taking over the reality of the real world there.

Bearbehind · 29/03/2020 18:44

Bollocks do they. They will be triaged and sit and wait til they give up.

So triaging isn’t being seen?

If they are triaged and are taking the piss then the rightly have to wait longer than others.

Theworldisfullofgs · 29/03/2020 18:46

bear no it isn't actually.

It's fraud. It's as simple as that.

And having found one in my very first NHS job, I do know.

Bearbehind · 29/03/2020 18:49

It doesn’t really matter theworld, the situation that occurred in isn’t actually in existence anymore

It doesn’t change the fact that it happens, and to think it doesn’t is simply naive.

Theworldisfullofgs · 29/03/2020 18:51

It happens because people turn a blind eye.

conveniencestore · 29/03/2020 18:51

It was clear coronavirus was going to be a worldwide problem in January. Did the UK government start to buy PPE, ventilators, drugs in January? Did they start to buy these things in February? No and no. Germany had already bought enough test kits for nearly each citizen at that point. In March, the government still hadn't bought these things. Then the UK started to get really affected and the UK government - led by BJ - started to look at buying these things and found none were left to buy. This country has been massively let down by BJ and the government. Poor planning, miserly tightness about spending money. Do you know that infected people are still arriving this country from Europe. Other countries have shut their borders to non-residents. Hundreds of staff have caught coronavirus at the local hospital due to lack of PPE, and lack of planning by central government. These staff cannot look after other patients for several weeks. They will have passed on the infection to other patients and the public before they knew they were ill. A local school were allowed to go skiing in a quarantined area of North Italy on 8 March because the government had not taken action to stop people travelling. BJ has overseen the worst management of a public health situation anywhere in the world.

Bearbehind · 29/03/2020 18:55

It happens because people turn a blind eye.

Ah, so it’s the fault of those who get caught up in it and don’t speak out, for fear of their job, rather than those who actually facilitate it

Good-o

SerendipityJane · 29/03/2020 18:55

amp.ft.com/content/fa747fbd-c19e-4bac-9c37-d46afc9393fb
Financial Times

Coronavirus
How the UK got coronavirus testing wrong | free to read
Government at first seemed to want a concerted contact tracing effort, but it eased up
Ministers are struggling to reassure a locked-down country with more than 14,550 confirmed cases and at least 759 deaths © Isabel Infantes/AFP/Getty
March 27, 2020 5:11 pm by Pilita Clark , Clive Cookson and Laura Hughes in London

In the second week of February, as Britons awoke to news that the number of people infected with coronavirus in the UK had risen to nine, their health department offered some words of reassurance.

“The NHS and wider health system is extremely well prepared for coronavirus and follows tried and tested procedures of the highest standards to protect staff, patients and the public,” it said.

Six weeks later, that certainty has been shattered.

Ministers are struggling to convince a locked-down country with more than 14,550 confirmed cases and at least 759 deaths that they can ramp up the numbers of ventilators, hospital beds and the one measure many experts say could have helped to thwart the crisis in the first place: tests.

“Testing is the basis of public health detective work to shut down an epidemic,” said Professor Anthony Costello of University College London, a former director at the World Health Organisation.
Country by country: how coronavirus case trajectories compare

He added that tests were vital for tracking down people with symptoms, identifying their contacts and quarantining them all until they were no longer infectious.

Other experts said that knowing how and where cases were spreading also helped to guide authorities on what sorts of measures to use in response.

At first, it seemed that the UK was going to follow this approach. But the steps it took next have become a source of concern for an anxious public and National Health Service workers on the front lines of the outbreak.

When China released the coronavirus genetic code on January 12 — a blueprint for producing tests — the UK became one of the first countries to develop an accurate test for the presence of the virus in patients.

Britain quickly began to track down and trace potential carriers, but it did not follow the much-praised path of mass testing in South Korea, which was soon testing more than 10,000 people a day.

Britain also processed its tests in a different way to South Korea and other countries. Instead of using a network of public and private laboratories, the UK initially used just one lab — Public Health England’s Colindale facility in north London, which was processing about 500 tests a day this week.

As coronavirus began to spread around the world, the UK gradually enlisted more labs across the country, announcing on March 11 that it had carried out 25,000 tests in total and was aiming for 10,000 a day — a target it has yet to reach.

That sequential approach was “very unsatisfactory”, said Greg Clark, the former Conservative business secretary who chairs the House of Commons science select committee, which is investigating the government’s response to Covid-19.

“First there was one PHE lab [Colindale] testing, then 11 others joined in and eventually more labs in the NHS and universities were involved,” he said, adding: “Why were they not all started in parallel?”
Chart showing that the UK was one of the first to develop a test for coronavirus but has tested fewer people than most other countries. Cases per million residents as of March 27 2020 and tests per million as at Mar 25 2020

Some experts believe bureaucratic fiefdoms might explain why the Colindale lab was only gradually joined by others. “If I’m running a lab where every sample of a really interesting new disease has to come to me for testing, then I am in control of the data,” said one senior academic who has worked in many UK laboratories.

“In that situation, it’s a bit difficult to think ‘We need a network of places and it doesn’t matter where the tests are done as long as all the data come together’.”

PHE said: “The rollout to other parts of the UK is the fastest deployment of a novel test to PHE and NHS labs in recent history, including in the swine flu pandemic in 2009.”

There is a belief here that the things being done in Korea were too intrusive and wouldn’t be acceptable
Senior Tory

The agency added: “The rollout of additional capacity requires properly trained staff, equipment and a supply of consumables as well as a thorough validation process for the lab to ensure the results are correct.”

“Accuracy is especially important given the PHE and NHS laboratory capacity is focused on testing the most vulnerable patients in ICUs [intensive care units], for whom the result will influence vital clinical management and infection prevention and control decisions.”

However, Mr Clark criticised the UK for not learning more from the experiences of other countries. Germany, for example, has had a relatively low coronavirus death rate after boosting testing to a reported average of 500,000 a week — about 12 times the number carried out in the UK.

“There has been no public explanation of the rationale for the UK taking a different approach,” said Mr Clark, who added he had been asking Matt Hancock — the health secretary who on Friday said he had tested positive for the virus — to explain the UK’s divergent strategy for nearly a month.

“At every point he has been ambitious for an increase in testing but what we have found is that the rate of increase has been very slow. Even now we’re at 6,000 tests per day, which is scarcely a transformation. It means just 10 tests a day in every parliamentary constituency,” he said.

Some politicians believe there was never much of an appetite for aggressive testing in the UK. “There is a belief here that the things being done in Korea were too intrusive and wouldn’t be acceptable,” said one senior Tory. “No one believed you could be totalitarian about this.”

The Tory added: “But what’s actually happened is China, Korea, Taiwan and Singapore — all countries that have a memory of Sars — did much better than anyone thought. It must be the case that we have paid a far bigger economic price from our strategy.”

Adding to the confusion, as the number of UK infection cases has risen, the government’s testing strategy has repeatedly shifted.

On March 14, officials signalled the contact-and-trace strategy for fighting the spread of the virus was ending, except for those in high-risk places like prisons or care homes. For everyone else, testing would be prioritised for those most ill in hospital.

Within days thousands had rushed to sign a junior doctor’s petition demanding that NHS workers be tested so they would know if they were safe to work or not, and officials said they were aiming for 25,000 tests a day.

Just a day later, the prime minister, Boris Johnson — who on Friday revealed that he had tested positive for the virus — claimed that daily testing would rise to 250,000. This week it has reached about 6,500 a day and officials said it would not reach 25,000 until the middle of April.

On Friday the government also announced that a new alliance of businesses, research institutes and universities would boost tests for frontline health workers, with hundreds to be done by the end of the weekend and numbers rising sharply next week.

So why did the government ease up on what initially seemed to be a concerted contact tracing and quarantining effort?
Recommended

Coronavirus: Britain in lockdown, Johnson tests positive, Sunak’s help for self-employed

“There comes a point in a pandemic where that is not an appropriate intervention,” Jenny Harries, the deputy chief medical officer for England, told reporters on Thursday, adding that the testing focus had to shift to patients and then to health workers.

“There has been a plan right the way through this which is entirely consistent with the science,” she said, adding that if there were “infinite testing facilities”, the wider public could be included.

Yet even if the government had those infinite facilities, some people fear it has left it too late to find the chemicals and materials needed to boost its testing capacity.

“We moved to the delay phase; we then realised we wanted to suppress, but by that stage the whole world had woken up to the need for testing and we had to get in the queue,” said the senior Tory.
Recommended

Coronavirus testing shortages: what’s the problem?

In the face of rising public concern about the lack of testing, Mr Johnson and his officials have begun to highlight work on a “game-changing” new antibody test that they hope will let people find out if they have had coronavirus and are therefore — hopefully — immune.

But it is still unclear when that test will be widely available.

Meanwhile, those who have worked on past epidemics say there is one clear lesson from the UK’s uneven testing approach.

“Whatever decisions people think they need to make, they need to make them quicker and bolder,” said virologist Professor Paul Kellam of Imperial College London, who has worked on swine flu, Ebola and other outbreaks.

In the UK, that probably meant taking a gamble on massively ramping up testing capacity at the end of January, he said, but he admitted that would have been a difficult decision.

Even so, he said, “it’s better to be big and bold and overshoot, than [be] late and under capacity”.

Theworldisfullofgs · 29/03/2020 18:57

Bear Hmm

Bearbehind · 29/03/2020 19:01

serendipity I don’t understand what you think tha5 article proves

When the virus first started there was a logic in tracing contacts

It’s now in virtually every country in the world and certainly in every corner of the UK

Seriously, what do you think mass testing can now prove?

We know it’s hugely contagious so have been told to stay in.

AuldAlliance · 29/03/2020 19:05

bear
I simply don’t believe that our government wouldn’t have exploited that situation if it had been possible

How do you explain that UK did not take part in procurement plans despite the EU saying they could if it wasn't (a) on Brexit-related grounds (b) because they cocked up? Those are the 2 reasons the gvmt themselves have put forwards.
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52052694
If they have better ones, why not mention them?

Or are you suggesting that the obvious advantages of the procurement plan were considered to be lesser than those of asking companies like Dyson, BMW, JCB , etc., who don't make ventilators, to switch over to manufacturing ventilators, which would then have to be put through stringent safety tests before being used?

In that case, questions need to be asked about the definition of advantages and whom they benefit.

Frequency · 29/03/2020 19:05

Thanks to the tories "unskilled" care workers are now nurses dishing out controlled medication, social workers, advocates, mental health nurses and therapists all rolled into one.

A few weeks ago I sat with a very unwell man waiting for paramedics to arrive while the man in question tried to decide whether he needed to kill me or himself. By the time the paramedics arrived I had managed to convince him neither of us needed to die so they left him there because there simply wasn't anywhere to take him apart from the Police station.

So, no, I don't feel sorry for Boris and cronies and until he does something that will make a real difference to the hundreds of thousands of working poor "unskilled" workers who are now digging him and his party out of the hole they dug themselves I never will and I don't mean standing in front of his mansion clapping while key workers like carers and shop assistants sit at home and worry about topping up the electric meter with all the extra laundry they have to do to keep themselves and the customers marginally safer than they would be if they wore their uniform twice or washed it on a 30 degree quick wash.

jasjas1973 · 29/03/2020 19:19

@Bearbehind

The issue with your good self is that when glaring mistakes are pointed out, you come out with "could have should have etc" but then ask for examples of what could have been done differently!!!

There has been good decision making, building extra temporary hospitals, deferring non urgent treatment... BUT equally, not testing NHS staff, not testing community deaths, not funding the NHS (over time 1 to 2 % p.a. less than euro average) and way lower based on GDP, all terrible ones!! and since its inception, the Tories have spent by far, in government.

Most euro countries have many times more nurses, doc's and beds than we do... & as i said earlier, this would have given us more time and perhaps not led to cancer treatments also being postponed :(

Bearbehind · 29/03/2020 19:33

The issue with your good self is that when glaring mistakes are pointed out, you come out with "could have should have etc" but then ask for examples of what could have been done differently!!!

To be fair I do see your point there! 😂

The point I’m trying to make is that none of us know what could have been done differently and to better effect, right now so whinging about things, while actually having no practical solutions, only ideal world scenarios, is pointless

Those pontificating that they know better are talking out of their arses just as much as BJ may or may not be

This situation is absolutely horrific and, regardless of what’s right or wrong, I sure as shit don’t wish Corbyn was leading us through it

Peregrina · 29/03/2020 19:36

BJ has overseen the worst management of a public health situation anywhere in the world.

Trump is probably worse, but let's not split hairs over it.

Brookeinabook · 29/03/2020 19:38

The point I’m trying to make is that none of us know what could have been done differently and to better effect

There are plenty of examples, like conveniencestore and auldalliance have said on this thread. One that springs to mind is not quarantining visitors to the country from Italy. Another is letting the Cheltenham races go ahead. For those who've followed closely, a lot of people were saying this was wrong and sent out the wrong message too and we ought to have been taking proper steps to reduce transmission then.