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Conflict in the Middle East

Anti Semitism to increase after the government sides with Islamists

146 replies

mids2019 · Yesterday 06:25

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16115899/Miliband-accused-Jews-UK-danger-Chief-Rabbi-Tory-leader-react-Labour-sanctions-Israeli.OrlaNdo memorial

The government's decision to sanction Israel, a democratic ally in the ME, surely is a reward to all those that have spouted Jew hate on our city streets. If the government is willing to distance itself from Israel won't this be seen as further motivation for the radical Islmist left to continue their campaigns in the UK. It's a shameful moment and it will take a lot to rebuild relations with Israel.

Chief Rabbi and Tory leader react furiously to Labour sanctions

Britain's Chief Rabbi said a trade ban on Israeli settlements in the West Bank was 'truly a dark day for British Jews'.

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16115899/Miliband-accused-Jews-UK-danger-Chief-Rabbi-Tory-leader-react-Labour-sanctions-Israeli.html

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imanastronaut · Today 15:39

SharonEllis · Today 15:37

No Im sorry, but you cant redefine zionism to support your political opinion. Zionism is a simple concept. How it is achieved will of course vary and different people will have different ideas but the basic idea remains the same.

When the policy of the government enacting it becomes that of genocide and crimes against humanity, of course it takes on a new meaning.

Neverstopwondering · Today 15:43

imanastronaut · Today 15:30

The current form of Zionism is based on the genocidal policy of the state of Israel.

The current form. I think you mean one of the possible forms people follow is zionism political. However there is way more to zionism than that and many verisions different people follow. Like most things Jewish there isn't really a set way to believe or think.

The only two things all zionists believe is in Jewish self determination and that Israel should exist. That doesn't mean all zionist agree with the way Israel was created in 1948. It simply means they agree it should be here now and self determination wise Jews should be able to live freely as Jews without the risk of prejudice etc (Something that is different in many areas of the world). Hence the reason why Jews that don't like the Israel government or some of the history will still call themselves zionists.

SharonEllis · Today 15:44

imanastronaut · Today 15:39

When the policy of the government enacting it becomes that of genocide and crimes against humanity, of course it takes on a new meaning.

No it doesn't that makes no sense. The government of Israel is not enacting zionism. The state of Israel exists, that is zionism. Individual political policies are not zionism, even if politicians invoke zionism.

SharonEllis · Today 15:45

Neverstopwondering · Today 15:43

The current form. I think you mean one of the possible forms people follow is zionism political. However there is way more to zionism than that and many verisions different people follow. Like most things Jewish there isn't really a set way to believe or think.

The only two things all zionists believe is in Jewish self determination and that Israel should exist. That doesn't mean all zionist agree with the way Israel was created in 1948. It simply means they agree it should be here now and self determination wise Jews should be able to live freely as Jews without the risk of prejudice etc (Something that is different in many areas of the world). Hence the reason why Jews that don't like the Israel government or some of the history will still call themselves zionists.

Exactly. Its not complicated.

Neverstopwondering · Today 15:49

imanastronaut · Today 15:39

When the policy of the government enacting it becomes that of genocide and crimes against humanity, of course it takes on a new meaning.

Do you believe that about a government that uses parts of Islamic or Christian beliefs in their rhetoric?

Does the belief used then belong to the political movement?

StopMeStopMeStopMe · Today 16:02

SharonEllis · Today 15:29

Do you believe that self determination is a bad thing for everyone, or just Jews?

Can I ask what you mean by self determination?

SharonEllis · Today 16:06

StopMeStopMeStopMe · Today 16:02

Can I ask what you mean by self determination?

You're on the Internet so I imagine you could have looked it up. Wikipedia share.google/fqJuVUoHAmW4hqigJ

StopMeStopMeStopMe · Today 16:51

SharonEllis · Today 16:06

You're on the Internet so I imagine you could have looked it up. Wikipedia share.google/fqJuVUoHAmW4hqigJ

I asked what you mean by it, not what the Wikipedia page says 🙄

Because many people who say that Jews deserve self determination don’t actually seem to believe that other groups of people do too.

But obviously further conversion is pointless if you found it so difficult to comprehend my question.

JohnofWessex · Today 16:57

RelaxAndDetox · Today 08:17

I see that everything Palestine is an obsession with some whereas crimes committed by various groups elsewhere in other countries are pretty much ignored 🙁

You are not wrong, BUT

  1. Its close to home
  2. There is a perception that we can influence them unlike say Burma etc
  3. Media Coverage
  4. etc etc

Not I might add that this excuses what is and is not covered

SharonEllis · Today 17:23

StopMeStopMeStopMe · Today 16:51

I asked what you mean by it, not what the Wikipedia page says 🙄

Because many people who say that Jews deserve self determination don’t actually seem to believe that other groups of people do too.

But obviously further conversion is pointless if you found it so difficult to comprehend my question.

I don't have a peculiarly personal definition of salf determination so I think the widely recognised one is most pertinent.

Neverstopwondering · Today 18:13

LandLaser · Today 15:31

Really? So you think 80% of Jews are pro-apartheid?

Don't know their answer to that but poster has previously put forward an idea thry wete pondering that Israelis should all be subject punishment and isolated both in Israel and abroad because of their government. Which is basically saying their should be a worldwide apartheid directed at all Israelis. So they themselves believe apartheid is a good thing it seems.

iwishitwouldstartraining · Today 18:17

JohnofWessex · Today 16:57

You are not wrong, BUT

  1. Its close to home
  2. There is a perception that we can influence them unlike say Burma etc
  3. Media Coverage
  4. etc etc

Not I might add that this excuses what is and is not covered

Because of Netanyahu's actions the rest of the world has been drawn into the conflict, willingly or unwillingly.

SharonEllis · Today 18:19

iwishitwouldstartraining · Today 18:17

Because of Netanyahu's actions the rest of the world has been drawn into the conflict, willingly or unwillingly.

How?

iwishitwouldstartraining · Today 18:36

SharonEllis · Today 18:19

How?

The Iran war.

Doesn't matter where you stand on the rights and wrongs of the conflict, it has drawn the rest of the world into a position where they can't just look the other way.

RedTagAlan · Today 18:47

SharonEllis · Today 15:44

No it doesn't that makes no sense. The government of Israel is not enacting zionism. The state of Israel exists, that is zionism. Individual political policies are not zionism, even if politicians invoke zionism.

I agree with you.

And although I am against the concept of religious states ( Netanyahu did declare Israel to be Jewish), I would prefer secular states, I am also a Zionist because I totally believe the state of Israel has a right to exist. In my model of the world, the concept of self-determination outranks theocracy, and ideology (both conditional). And yes, I know Israel in not a theocracy. But It does have an ideology though. That of democracy. And to me, that in turn outranks theology.

When I say, "my model of the world", I try to base it on this

OHCHR | Universal Declaration of Human Rights - English

But that document lays out an ideal. It does not weight anything. And in a way, that is the beauty of it, and it's downside.

So yeah. I am a Zionist. And to me, to be against Zionism, means one is also against that document I linked,

At the same time, I am also pro Palestine. Because for me, it is self-determination that is the biggie. And Israel is denying people that.

The odd thing is of course. The linked document does not actually mention self determination. But everything branches from that document. And the concept of self determination sits high in those branches.

SharonEllis · Today 18:52

Why are you pinpointing Netanyahu as solely responsible? He is responding to the war the Iranian Revolution has been waging against Israel for 40 odd years. At the very least the responsibility is shared by Iran and the US. Are we drawn in exactly? Impacted severely, yes, of course. I would say Trump and Iran are actually more responsible and I'm no fan of Netanyahu.

RedTagAlan · Today 19:04

SharonEllis · Today 18:52

Why are you pinpointing Netanyahu as solely responsible? He is responding to the war the Iranian Revolution has been waging against Israel for 40 odd years. At the very least the responsibility is shared by Iran and the US. Are we drawn in exactly? Impacted severely, yes, of course. I would say Trump and Iran are actually more responsible and I'm no fan of Netanyahu.

Is that to me ?

All I am done was point out that Netanyahu declared Israel to be a Jewish state.

"The Israel Prime Minsiter later said during a cabinet meeting: “Israel is a Jewish, democratic state. What this means is that it is the nation-state of the Jewish people alone,” he said."

Source

Benjamin Netanyahu rebuked by Israel's president for saying it is 'not a country of all its citizens' - The Jewish Chronicle (thejc.com)

And that to me, is no different than if the Palestinian leader declared an Islamic state. If democratically elected of course.

The concept of self determination can't be selective based on religion.

Benjamin Netanyahu rebuked by Israel's president for saying it is 'not a country of all its citizens'

Benjamin Netanyahu rebuked by Israel's president for saying it is 'not a country of all its citizens' - The Jewish Chronicle

President Reuven Rivlin's intervention came after the Israeli Prime Minister said 'Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish nation'

https://www.thejc.com/news/benjamin-netanyahu-rebuked-by-israels-president-for-saying-it-is-not-a-country-of-all-its-citizens-we66tysi

iwishitwouldstartraining · Today 19:16

SharonEllis · Today 18:52

Why are you pinpointing Netanyahu as solely responsible? He is responding to the war the Iranian Revolution has been waging against Israel for 40 odd years. At the very least the responsibility is shared by Iran and the US. Are we drawn in exactly? Impacted severely, yes, of course. I would say Trump and Iran are actually more responsible and I'm no fan of Netanyahu.

I don’t think he is solely responsible, but he took actions that inevitably meant that the rest of the world focused on the Middle East this year.

Now his government is signalling that it intends to prevent Palestine ever becoming a state, regardless of what they do, not for political or defensive reasons but because God said so.

This all, obviously, has an impact that goes far beyond Israel’s borders.

SharonEllis · Today 19:17

RedTagAlan · Today 19:04

Is that to me ?

All I am done was point out that Netanyahu declared Israel to be a Jewish state.

"The Israel Prime Minsiter later said during a cabinet meeting: “Israel is a Jewish, democratic state. What this means is that it is the nation-state of the Jewish people alone,” he said."

Source

Benjamin Netanyahu rebuked by Israel's president for saying it is 'not a country of all its citizens' - The Jewish Chronicle (thejc.com)

And that to me, is no different than if the Palestinian leader declared an Islamic state. If democratically elected of course.

The concept of self determination can't be selective based on religion.

No it was to @iwishitwouldstartraining. Dunno why the quote didnt work.

mumumental · Today 19:24

@SlightyamusedandsillyI agree. Also, you do not have to respond to endless passive aggressive questions.

SharonEllis · Today 19:45

RedTagAlan · Today 18:47

I agree with you.

And although I am against the concept of religious states ( Netanyahu did declare Israel to be Jewish), I would prefer secular states, I am also a Zionist because I totally believe the state of Israel has a right to exist. In my model of the world, the concept of self-determination outranks theocracy, and ideology (both conditional). And yes, I know Israel in not a theocracy. But It does have an ideology though. That of democracy. And to me, that in turn outranks theology.

When I say, "my model of the world", I try to base it on this

OHCHR | Universal Declaration of Human Rights - English

But that document lays out an ideal. It does not weight anything. And in a way, that is the beauty of it, and it's downside.

So yeah. I am a Zionist. And to me, to be against Zionism, means one is also against that document I linked,

At the same time, I am also pro Palestine. Because for me, it is self-determination that is the biggie. And Israel is denying people that.

The odd thing is of course. The linked document does not actually mention self determination. But everything branches from that document. And the concept of self determination sits high in those branches.

Broadly agree. Im a secularist. The Jews are a nation, its about much more than religion as is very apparent in Israel where many Jews are not religious at all. The right to self determination of course extends to the Palestinians.

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