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Conflict in the Middle East

Anti Semitism to increase after the government sides with Islamists

146 replies

mids2019 · Yesterday 06:25

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16115899/Miliband-accused-Jews-UK-danger-Chief-Rabbi-Tory-leader-react-Labour-sanctions-Israeli.OrlaNdo memorial

The government's decision to sanction Israel, a democratic ally in the ME, surely is a reward to all those that have spouted Jew hate on our city streets. If the government is willing to distance itself from Israel won't this be seen as further motivation for the radical Islmist left to continue their campaigns in the UK. It's a shameful moment and it will take a lot to rebuild relations with Israel.

Chief Rabbi and Tory leader react furiously to Labour sanctions

Britain's Chief Rabbi said a trade ban on Israeli settlements in the West Bank was 'truly a dark day for British Jews'.

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16115899/Miliband-accused-Jews-UK-danger-Chief-Rabbi-Tory-leader-react-Labour-sanctions-Israeli.html

OP posts:
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7
Newbutoldfather · Today 11:04

@flowersplease ,

I think you make some really good points, but it is a bit more subtle.

Most Jewish people are Zionist in believing that Israel has a right to exist in its original borders and remain Jewish. There are exceptions, but I think they are relatively few, especially when antecedents died in the holocaust (me, for example!).

Also, for religious Jews (not me), The Holy Land is fairly centred in the scriptures and ‘Next Year in Jerusalem’ is a common Jewish toast.

That doesn’t mean that most liberal Jews approve of what Israel is doing today. In fact, quite the opposite. Personally, I think that Israel has an obligation not to betray its liberal and tolerant ideals as a state, which is why Netanyahu’s government’s current behaviour is so egregiously awful.

caringcarer · Today 11:06

iwishitwouldstartraining · Today 11:03

Yes, but you said 75%

I read that figure somewhere but it was a while ago now and I can't recall where I read it.

CoffeeAndACroissant · Today 11:06

OP, are you going to come back and explain how exactly sanctioning illegal settlements that have contributed to ethnic cleansing equates to siding with Islamists?

Or are you just another loud mouth with no substance to your argument beyond a thinly veiled hatred of Muslims?

iwishitwouldstartraining · Today 11:07

HoppityBun · Today 10:53

I find this also difficult I simply don’t know what to think, OP. I wonder if there are other people who are, like me, genuinely don’t know what to think about the dilemma that the Middle East poses.

I have dear Jewish friends who are on a wide ranging spectrum of approaches to Israel. Some have lived there, some have family there and visit often, some have for many years utterly condemned the stance that these Israeli government is taking on Palestine. It is so hard for them.

I also hold in me the horror of what happened to Jews in the holocaust. I entirely accept that other groups, such as Roma, homosexuals and those with disabilities, were also slaughtered. What concerns me so much about the approach that the Israeli government has taken over the last 10 years is that it is almost poking and stirring up antisemitism. Is that a deliberate tactic?

I now find myself in a position where I’m horrified that any subject on social media seems to have a pile of people who are blaming Zionists. And I say that entirely accepting that Israel / Judaism/ Zionism are all groups with different nuances that I can’t always hold in my head.

I think that the UK was culpable in the way that Israel was established, but I also think that Israel most definitely has a right to exist. I can’t stand the expansion of the borders and I have noticed that some of the most virulent and aggressive settlers are American. Their approach seems to be more American than Middle Eastern.

On the other hand, I know people who have gone out to observe in Palestine and in particular in Gaza and who have supported Palestinians on their daily trips into and back out of Israel in order to work. I’m also aware that there are Arab Israelis. I think what has happened to Palestinians is devastating and shocking and I would like to support them. I’ve watched videos of the destruction of Palestinian homes and seen settler families cheering as Palestinians are hounded out of their homes and their farms destroyed, which is contemptible..

The problem for me is that this seems to me to have become a binary matter: you either support one or you support the other and I just can’t do that.

I think the question of settlements is different.

It's less about whether you support one side or the other, and more about whether you want to abandon the idea of ever finding a solution.

Until recently the mainstream view was that everyone should be working towards a two state solution. Now the voices of people who just want to annihilate each other are much louder.

RedTagAlan · Today 11:33

caringcarer · Today 11:06

I read that figure somewhere but it was a while ago now and I can't recall where I read it.

Handy that. I noticed you did not reply to my post debunking your claim, in a post I quoted you in.

Oh well.

Babyboomtastic · Today 11:38

caringcarer · Today 11:06

I read that figure somewhere but it was a while ago now and I can't recall where I read it.

Frankly, what does it matter? If Israel were the only provider of oxygen on this planet I still would still call out wrong, because that's the right thing to do.

DeterminedRat · Today 11:51

flowersplease · Today 10:54

I really wish people, on both sides of the argument, would learn to differentiate between Jewish people and Zionists. Some of the most anti-Zionist people I know are Jewish, protesting against Isreal.

Being pro Palestine doesn’t make you an antisemite, being Jewish doesn’t make you Zionist- it’s really not that hard to grasp.

Edited to add: not all Jewish people living in Israel are pro Zionist even. I taught a lovely young man who had grown up in Israel and had estranged from his parents because he refused to do mandatory military service. There are Jewish people in Israel protesting against the government all the time.

Edited

And supporting Palestinians right to a state doesn't make you an 'Islamist' as the author of this thread(who seems to have wandered off) would have us believe.

Squeezingwildoranges · Today 11:56

RelaxAndDetox · Today 09:45

You said:

"Is it just Israeli terrorists you want the UK to trade with or do you want to trade with ISIS, the Taliban, Hezbollah etc too?"

There aren't any Israeli proscribed terrorists we trade with though are there.

So you are conflating actual proscribed terrorists with a group of awful settlers who aren't proscribed terrorists so we now fall out with a country that isn't made up of terrorists who give us terrorists information, trade in medical goods etc 🤔 odd to do that for a bunch of settlers that the country should deal with themselves. Other countries dont fall out with us because we haven't got our gang culture and high rate of stabbings of young males sorted out here. Also awful but other countries don't take umbridge that we haven't sorted it and more and more young people die at the hands of gangs.

Difference is our army doesn't help out the gang members and stand by while they terrorise.

flowersplease · Today 12:59

DeterminedRat · Today 11:51

And supporting Palestinians right to a state doesn't make you an 'Islamist' as the author of this thread(who seems to have wandered off) would have us believe.

Absolutely right, ridiculous post.

Orangeyoucan · Today 13:21

Slightyamusedandsilly · Yesterday 06:35

The government represent the nation. Most Brits are aghast at the Palestinian genocide. It's over time for the government to take action.

Just out of interest. What action do you think Israel should have taken in response to the massacre that happened on 7th October? If any?

localnotail · Today 13:25

StopMeStopMeStopMe · Today 08:25

Do you characterise criticism of the settler activities in the West Bank as anti-Zionism or antisemitism?

It's a criticism of the current Israeli government and extreme right settler groups who are allowed to carry on. It has nothing to do with Jewish nation as a whole (so not antisemitism) and it has nothing to do with the existence of Israel as a whole (so not anti Zionism).

In my view Israel is about the only democratic and progressive country in its region, though of course I agree that it's role in the Palestinian conflict can not be ignored. I also believe Israel should continue to exist and its citizens should not be killed or displaced to make room for Palestinians (and vice versa)

LandLaser · Today 13:41

flowersplease · Today 10:54

I really wish people, on both sides of the argument, would learn to differentiate between Jewish people and Zionists. Some of the most anti-Zionist people I know are Jewish, protesting against Isreal.

Being pro Palestine doesn’t make you an antisemite, being Jewish doesn’t make you Zionist- it’s really not that hard to grasp.

Edited to add: not all Jewish people living in Israel are pro Zionist even. I taught a lovely young man who had grown up in Israel and had estranged from his parents because he refused to do mandatory military service. There are Jewish people in Israel protesting against the government all the time.

Edited

The majority of Jewish people are zionists. You talk about zionism like it's a bad thing.

augustuss · Today 13:41

The illegal settlements are illegal. USA and Israel pretending they are not doesn't change that. The settlements are becoming more and more violent. Israel is making sure there’s no two-state solution by trying to change the facts on the ground and dominate in numbers. There’s an also advisory ruling by international court of justice saying that the entire occupation is illegal, not just the illegal settlements…

The Government made it clear that everyone blaming Jews around the world for Israel’s actions is engaging in antisemitism. People like you are trying to blur the lines and guilt the rest of us for not turning a blind eye.

Squeezingwildoranges · Today 14:12

This reply has been deleted

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Neverstopwondering · Today 14:58

LoremIpsumCici

Whilst say Cheshire specialised plant produces over 480 million doses of sterile liquid products annually (primarily for respiratory conditions and multiple sclerosis) alongside R&D device technology and a few other things are made in the UK for the company. It still stands that the vast majority of Teva's billions of tablets, capsules, and generic packs distributed to the UK market are imported from its international manufacturing network including Israel itself rather than produced domestically. Components for some of the latest drugs can only come from Israel at the moment as too rare in use to be profitable to make elsewhere. These drugs keep people alive so not something to quibble about.

You can look and say it is an Israeli company so must be lying but the basic facts are correct. Marketing tactic yes but still the numbers I started earlier are facts.

Protester from Palestine solidarity have just held a protest outside Whipps Cross Hospital in London. I can imagine they did their research before quoting these facts and staging their protest about the NHS using Israeli and supplies medicines to treat people. If you don't believe me maybe you will believe them.

LoveLifeBeHappy · Today 15:04

mids2019 · Yesterday 06:25

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16115899/Miliband-accused-Jews-UK-danger-Chief-Rabbi-Tory-leader-react-Labour-sanctions-Israeli.OrlaNdo memorial

The government's decision to sanction Israel, a democratic ally in the ME, surely is a reward to all those that have spouted Jew hate on our city streets. If the government is willing to distance itself from Israel won't this be seen as further motivation for the radical Islmist left to continue their campaigns in the UK. It's a shameful moment and it will take a lot to rebuild relations with Israel.

What has Islam got to do with any of this?

imanastronaut · Today 15:10

LandLaser · Today 13:41

The majority of Jewish people are zionists. You talk about zionism like it's a bad thing.

Because it is?

Neverstopwondering · Today 15:19

imanastronaut · Today 15:10

Because it is?

Explain please

SharonEllis · Today 15:29

imanastronaut · Today 15:10

Because it is?

Do you believe that self determination is a bad thing for everyone, or just Jews?

imanastronaut · Today 15:30

Neverstopwondering · Today 15:19

Explain please

The current form of Zionism is based on the genocidal policy of the state of Israel.

LandLaser · Today 15:31

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Really? So you think 80% of Jews are pro-apartheid?

SharonEllis · Today 15:32

imanastronaut · Today 15:30

The current form of Zionism is based on the genocidal policy of the state of Israel.

No it isn't. Zionism is the right to self determination of the Jewish people. You can oppose this current government but you cant conflate it with zionism as a concept shared by the vast majority of Jews.

imanastronaut · Today 15:33

SharonEllis · Today 15:32

No it isn't. Zionism is the right to self determination of the Jewish people. You can oppose this current government but you cant conflate it with zionism as a concept shared by the vast majority of Jews.

Yes, it is. The dictionary definition may well be something different but concepts evolve over time and the current Zionist rhetoric we are seeing is worrying.

SharonEllis · Today 15:37

imanastronaut · Today 15:33

Yes, it is. The dictionary definition may well be something different but concepts evolve over time and the current Zionist rhetoric we are seeing is worrying.

No Im sorry, but you cant redefine zionism to support your political opinion. Zionism is a simple concept. How it is achieved will of course vary and different people will have different ideas but the basic idea remains the same.

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