Anti Semitism to increase after the government sides with Islamists

[mids2019]

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16115899/Miliband-accused-Jews-UK-danger-Chief-Rabbi-Tory-leader-react-Labour-sanctions-Israeli.OrlaNdo memorial

The government's decision to sanction Israel, a democratic ally in the ME, surely is a reward to all those that have spouted Jew hate on our city streets. If the government is willing to distance itself from Israel won't this be seen as further motivation for the radical Islmist left to continue their campaigns in the UK. It's a shameful moment and it will take a lot to rebuild relations with Israel.

And no, I wasn’t referring to the Brexit referendum. In the referendum 52% of the vote was to leave the EU, not 52% of the electorate.

I’m not understanding your “didn’t believe it would happen” comment in reference to the Brexit referendum but that’s not relevant to this thread.

There are lots of conflicts going on in the world. I don't raise any above others. Someone dying in Sudan isn't less than someone dying in the West Bank, or as a result of gang violence in South America (51% of homicide rate in 100,000). There is so much violence in the world that goes ignored.

My opinion is that the MAJORITY of people have enough to concern them in their day to day lives here to concentrate on. Its a conflict thousands of miles away. Concentrate on the problems here. It isn't high on the radar of the vast majority of people. That's it really.

The sanctions are to put pressure on the government to deal with the terrorist settlers.

The correct comparison would be if Tommy Robinson or “the Palestine Action lot” were driving people of a different ethnicity out of their homes, murdering them and stealing their land and the UK government was refusing to do anything thing to stop them.

Do you think sanctions against the UK by other countries would be legitimate in that scenario or would you think some strange obsession was being displayed if other countries decided to show their disapproval?

What the UK have done is very performative. It affects a tiny amount of goods and won’t even come into force for months. Personally, I think we should have gone a lot further.

It made for a good speech and Israel deserves every word of it.

Israel’s response was also performative. They need our arms more than we need their exports.

I, and a lot of my Jewish liberal friends, welcome this. I think the chief rabbi, who is very closely connected to Israel, doesn’t speak for the whole Jewish community (maybe orthodox Jewry?).

@StopMeStopMeStopMe ,

‘The correct comparison would be if Tommy Robinson or “the Palestine Action lot” were driving people of a different ethnicity out of their homes, murdering them and stealing their land and the UK government was refusing to do anything thing to stop them.’

It’s a lot worse than that. Several Israeli ministers (Smotrich, Ben G’vir, Katz etc) are actively encouraging them.

Apply that analogy to the UK!

So you'd like the UK to lift all sanctions? The UK added more designations to their Sudanese sanctions list in July of this year for instance. Should they just not bother because Sudan isnt really on the radar of most people? Fuck it, doesn't matter if these people/companies are responsible for pain, suffering, terrorism, let's trade with them and finance their violence? It's so far away does it really matter?

Do you even know what these sanctions are? They are targeted sanctions, they aren't aimed at 'Israelis in general', they aren't sanctions 'on Israel'

From a realpolitik point of view, the conflict in the Middle East has been particularly difficult to ignore since March this year.

I think you are underestimating, whether deliberately or not I don’t know, the level and strength of feeling in the UK about Israel’s actions in Gaza and the West Bank.

A simple internet search will show you numerous polls indicating that a high percentage of the population believe that Israel is committing genocide, for example. I won’t link any specific ones as probably each will be unacceptable evidence to you. The overall picture is clear.

I don’t understand why having their own day to day concerns would stop people having an opinion on a the actions of a country we, including our politicians, have many ties with?

Good point

If (god forbid) The UK government supported Tommy Robinson and he had decided to take over the Faroe Islands, I can see that there might be targeted sanctions.

You're not comparing like for like.

You're right that most Israeli citizens are not terrorists/settlers. Equally most Lebanese people are not Hezbollah for example. Also, not all those who are technically employed by Hezbollah will be terrorists or share their ideologies (a cleaner in a Hezbollah funded hospital is there to clean, a doctor there to treat patients)

Then there'll be a large sector of both societies which have links with settlers/Hezbollah, whether that's business links, friends/family etc.

So in both of those societies, not everyone is terrorist, though many people will have some form of link.

You said:

"Is it just Israeli terrorists you want the UK to trade with or do you want to trade with ISIS, the Taliban, Hezbollah etc too?"

There aren't any Israeli proscribed terrorists we trade with though are there.

So you are conflating actual proscribed terrorists with a group of awful settlers who aren't proscribed terrorists so we now fall out with a country that isn't made up of terrorists who give us terrorists information, trade in medical goods etc 🤔 odd to do that for a bunch of settlers that the country should deal with themselves. Other countries dont fall out with us because we haven't got our gang culture and high rate of stabbings of young males sorted out here. Also awful but other countries don't take umbridge that we haven't sorted it and more and more young people die at the hands of gangs.

We weren't talking about that. It was about public support of the action taken by govement. I was just surprised that only 33% fully support it. Had thought it would be more like what you said.

The only reason they're not prescribed terrorists is for political reasons, that Israel have been allies. The behaviour has been that of terrorists, and if you read the statement made by our prime minister on this he categorises them as terrorists.

These are also terrorists which are supported and protected by the government and encouraged in what they do.

And you seemed to be conflating people who Ed Miliband described as terrorists with 'Israelies in general'.

I'm not sure why you are comparing gang violence with people who are attempting ethnic cleansing(again as described by Ed Miliband)?

You seem determined to down play terrorists who are ethnically cleansing illegally occupied land, this is what was stated by the British government as what is happening there. Only you know your motivations for that but you should probably take a while to examine them.

In your scenario, I would very much hope that if UK government ministers were actively supporting gang culture and stabbings, there would be some push back from the countries that the rest of us thought of as allies.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgdzxpkdd7o

@iwishitwouldstartraining ,

One thing that I feel Israel has done quite successfully is to sanitise Ben G’vir and Smotrich for international consumption.

It’s almost like ‘nothing to see here, these are a couple of mad extremists, nothing to do with us’!

Look at that BBC headline you linked to. The first two words are ‘far right’, almost to separate him from the Israeli government. He is a minister of state and Ben G’vir is a senior minister of state, in the cabinet.

Domestically, they are treated as serious ministers who decide government policy, one of which is ethnic cleansing.

I am sure Netanyahu is thrilled when we use the words ‘far right’ to separate Ben G’vir and Smotrich from the Israeli mainstream. If Netanyahu disagreed with them, he should sack them.

And our media should be careful about this kind of whitewashing of Israeli policy.

Announcing the plan at a news conference with settler organisation Yesha Council Chairman Israel Ganz and Maale Adumim Mayor Guy Yifrach, Smotrich said the land had been given to the Jews by God.

I think there is general main stream support for the idea that Israel has the right to defend itself.

There is not support for the idea that a country can claim extra land because God gave it to them. You are getting into Putin territory there.

I find this also difficult I simply don’t know what to think, OP. I wonder if there are other people who are, like me, genuinely don’t know what to think about the dilemma that the Middle East poses.

I have dear Jewish friends who are on a wide ranging spectrum of approaches to Israel. Some have lived there, some have family there and visit often, some have for many years utterly condemned the stance that these Israeli government is taking on Palestine. It is so hard for them.

I also hold in me the horror of what happened to Jews in the holocaust. I entirely accept that other groups, such as Roma, homosexuals and those with disabilities, were also slaughtered. What concerns me so much about the approach that the Israeli government has taken over the last 10 years is that it is almost poking and stirring up antisemitism. Is that a deliberate tactic?

I now find myself in a position where I’m horrified that any subject on social media seems to have a pile of people who are blaming Zionists. And I say that entirely accepting that Israel / Judaism/ Zionism are all groups with different nuances that I can’t always hold in my head.

I think that the UK was culpable in the way that Israel was established, but I also think that Israel most definitely has a right to exist. I can’t stand the expansion of the borders and I have noticed that some of the most virulent and aggressive settlers are American. Their approach seems to be more American than Middle Eastern.

On the other hand, I know people who have gone out to observe in Palestine and in particular in Gaza and who have supported Palestinians on their daily trips into and back out of Israel in order to work. I’m also aware that there are Arab Israelis. I think what has happened to Palestinians is devastating and shocking and I would like to support them. I’ve watched videos of the destruction of Palestinian homes and seen settler families cheering as Palestinians are hounded out of their homes and their farms destroyed, which is contemptible..

The problem for me is that this seems to me to have become a binary matter: you either support one or you support the other and I just can’t do that.

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I really wish people, on both sides of the argument, would learn to differentiate between Jewish people and Zionists. Some of the most anti-Zionist people I know are Jewish, protesting against Isreal.

Being pro Palestine doesn’t make you an antisemite, being Jewish doesn’t make you Zionist- it’s really not that hard to grasp.

Edited to add: not all Jewish people living in Israel are pro Zionist even. I taught a lovely young man who had grown up in Israel and had estranged from his parents because he refused to do mandatory military service. There are Jewish people in Israel protesting against the government all the time.

When asked by the BBC what message the plans sent to the likes of the UK and France, which plan to recognise a State of Palestine later this year, he said: "It's not going to happen. There will be no state to recognise."
In response to the move, the US State Department said "a stable West Bank keeps Israel secure and is in line with this administration's goal to achieve peace in the region."
But the UN and the EU urged Israel not to progress the plan.
The "EU rejects any territorial change that is not part of a political agreement between involved parties," a spokesman said.
UK Foreign Minister David Lammy said the proposal must be stopped.
"The UK strongly opposes the Israeli government's E1 settlement plans, which would divide a future Palestinian state in two and mark a flagrant breach of international law," he said.

This was all a year ago, and none of those 'urges' and 'rejections' made any difference.

Yes, but you said 75%