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Conflict in the Middle East

Hamas embedded in Gazan society

124 replies

Ihatetomatoes · 31/05/2026 09:36

I found this an interesting read. How hamas is deeply embedded in the fabric of Gazan society. Its an older article, not one Ive seen shared and helps to explain why Hamas hasn't gone.

https://themedialine.org/top-stories/how-hamas-still-holds-power-in-gaza-more-than-2-years-into-the-war/

How Hamas Still Holds Power in Gaza, More Than 2 Years Into the War  - The Media Line

Nearly two years after Israel launched a war […]

https://themedialine.org/top-stories/how-hamas-still-holds-power-in-gaza-more-than-2-years-into-the-war/

OP posts:
SharonEllis · 01/06/2026 05:27

MarmaladeorJam · 31/05/2026 20:33

Basically their choice is:

Be ruled by a nation that does not fire it's Foreign Minister for calling you human animals, a nation that kills approximately 1,000 of you a year but escalates that to 70,000 in revenge attacks for the murder of 1,700, holds 10,000 or so of you in prison, controls who goes in and who comes out of the strip etc OR

or be ruled by a group that were created by that power, are hated internationally (and probably domestically), but they manage to get some food in, some medicines, and maybe your brother's friend might know someone who knows someone...

Basically - would you prefer to be ruled by your own bastards or foreign bastards?

What would you choose OP?

Palestinian people are caught in the middle of bullshit stories like this.

You cant just make stuff up. Hanas was not created by Israel. Hamas came out of the Muslim Brotherhood and supported by various to counter PLO & Fatah. At times that included Israel. If you knew anything about the real world you would know that at times governments support their enemy's enemy in conflict. Outside of pristine ivory towers people have to get their hands dirty. In more recent times Hamas has been massively supported by Iran, at various times Saudi, Syria and other Middke Eastern states.

localnotail · 01/06/2026 06:57

MarmaladeorJam · 31/05/2026 23:21

I am not actually.

Look at statistics from the region, country by country.

Deaths by war, country by country.

Human Rights Watch, UN, EU, Save the Children, Oxfam etc.

Any agency you respect - just look at the numbers.

Are you saying more died in Gaza than in Syria, for example? Or, less recently, Yemen?

Mantanora · 01/06/2026 07:16

localnotail · 31/05/2026 16:39

Its much more to do with them than the Western countries. Firstly, a lot of support for Hamas comes from there. Also, none of the countries in the vicinity would take Gazan refugees - why? Israel accepted Jewish people from every one of the Middle eastern courtiers, so why every Muslim state in the region prefers to shut their doors to fellow Muslims?

Israel didn't just accept Arab Jews, they actively encouraged them to leave their homes and migrate to Israel. I am sure the Muslim states you are referring to would happily give the Palestinian civilians temporary refuge if they believed it would be temporary. They know there would be nothing temporary about it. Once the Palestinians are driven out, they will never be allowed to return. Why should any country help Israel to ethnically cleanse the land of its indigenous population.

Ellen2shoes · 01/06/2026 07:20

SharonEllis · 01/06/2026 05:27

You cant just make stuff up. Hanas was not created by Israel. Hamas came out of the Muslim Brotherhood and supported by various to counter PLO & Fatah. At times that included Israel. If you knew anything about the real world you would know that at times governments support their enemy's enemy in conflict. Outside of pristine ivory towers people have to get their hands dirty. In more recent times Hamas has been massively supported by Iran, at various times Saudi, Syria and other Middke Eastern states.

Are you sure that you are aware of Israel’s part in ‘the real world’ ?

‘Whereas in the UK and Israel we have separation of powers and the rule of law, however vulnerable and imperfect they may at times be’.

Ah yes the rule of law:

Israeli war crimes are violations of international criminal law, including war crimes, crimes against humanity and the crime of genocide, which Israeli security forces have committed or been accused of committing since the founding of Israel in 1948. These have included murder, intentional targeting of civilians, killing prisoners of war and surrendered combatants, indiscriminate attacks, collective punishment, starvation, persecution, the use of human shields, sexual violenceand rape, torture, pillage, forced transfer, breach of medical neutrality, enforced disappearance, targeting journalists, attacking civilian and protected objects, wanton destruction, incitement to genocide, and genocide.

Is this Israel getting its ‘hands dirty’?

Crimes against humanity - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity

MarmaladeorJam · 01/06/2026 08:08

localnotail · 01/06/2026 06:57

Are you saying more died in Gaza than in Syria, for example? Or, less recently, Yemen?

I made my claim in response to the claim that Israel is always attacked.

In that context, the claim is generally that Israel is vulnerable to attack from it's neighbors - Hezbollah (in Lebanon), Hamas and other groups in Gaza - West Bank, and of course, a lot of interference by Iran.

However, if you look at numbers - of occupation by army, people dead, land taken, amount of explosions, damage done to infrastructure by bombing campaigns and so on, Israel is the dominant force and is the aggressor.

I did not include Syria in my reckoning as that was primarily a civil war, with prolonged military intervention by the USA (so not regional).

The same applies to Yemen.

Ihatetomatoes · 01/06/2026 08:14

MarmaladeorJam · 01/06/2026 08:08

I made my claim in response to the claim that Israel is always attacked.

In that context, the claim is generally that Israel is vulnerable to attack from it's neighbors - Hezbollah (in Lebanon), Hamas and other groups in Gaza - West Bank, and of course, a lot of interference by Iran.

However, if you look at numbers - of occupation by army, people dead, land taken, amount of explosions, damage done to infrastructure by bombing campaigns and so on, Israel is the dominant force and is the aggressor.

I did not include Syria in my reckoning as that was primarily a civil war, with prolonged military intervention by the USA (so not regional).

The same applies to Yemen.

So you discount wars that are primarily civil wars or not regional (you claim Syria and Yeman fall into that category). So when making claim just a war that Israel is involved in. 🤔

OP posts:
MarmaladeorJam · 01/06/2026 08:21

Ihatetomatoes · 01/06/2026 08:14

So you discount wars that are primarily civil wars or not regional (you claim Syria and Yeman fall into that category). So when making claim just a war that Israel is involved in. 🤔

So when making claim just a war that Israel is involved in. 🤔

Don't do that.

Don't make a cheap, unwarranted anti semite implication about me please.

Read the dialogue between the poster and me, get up to speed on the content of that conversation, then ask me questions.

Ihatetomatoes · 01/06/2026 08:25

MarmaladeorJam · 01/06/2026 08:08

I made my claim in response to the claim that Israel is always attacked.

In that context, the claim is generally that Israel is vulnerable to attack from it's neighbors - Hezbollah (in Lebanon), Hamas and other groups in Gaza - West Bank, and of course, a lot of interference by Iran.

However, if you look at numbers - of occupation by army, people dead, land taken, amount of explosions, damage done to infrastructure by bombing campaigns and so on, Israel is the dominant force and is the aggressor.

I did not include Syria in my reckoning as that was primarily a civil war, with prolonged military intervention by the USA (so not regional).

The same applies to Yemen.

You said:

"If you look at the numbers of people killed over the last 20 years, the biggest threat to everyone in that region is statistically Israel.

By a huge country mile."

Actually:

Over the last 20 years, the conflicts with the highest estimated death tolls are the Syrian Civil War, the Tigray War, and the Iraq War.

Why discount those. They are wars, whether others involved or not, or do those deaths not count for some strange reason.

Details:

Syrian Civil War (2011–2024): Estimates range from roughly 500,000 to 650,000+ direct and indirect fatalities before the collapse of the Assad government.

Iraq War and Insurgency (2003–2011): This prolonged conflict resulted in approximately 300,000+ violent and indirect deaths.

(I didn't realise that the Yemani civil war, just over 20 years sho resulted in 377,000, according to the UN)

War is absolutely awful. ALL wars are awful.

OP posts:
Ihatetomatoes · 01/06/2026 08:25

You said:

"If you look at the numbers of people killed over the last 20 years, the biggest threat to everyone in that region is statistically Israel.

By a huge country mile."

Actually:

Over the last 20 years, the conflicts with the highest estimated death tolls are the Syrian Civil War, the Tigray War, and the Iraq War.

Why discount those. They are wars, whether others involved or not, or fo those deaths not count for some strange reason.

Details:

Syrian Civil War (2011–2024): Estimates range from roughly 500,000 to 650,000+ direct and indirect fatalities before the collapse of the Assad government.

Iraq War and Insurgency (2003–2011): This prolonged conflict resulted in approximately 300,000+ violent and indirect deaths.

(I didn't realise that the Yemani civil war, just over 20 years sho resulted in 377,000, according to the UN)

War is absolutely awful. ALL wars are awful.

OP posts:
Ihatetomatoes · 01/06/2026 08:28

MarmaladeorJam · 01/06/2026 08:21

So when making claim just a war that Israel is involved in. 🤔

Don't do that.

Don't make a cheap, unwarranted anti semite implication about me please.

Read the dialogue between the poster and me, get up to speed on the content of that conversation, then ask me questions.

It wasn't cheap. I was responding to your claim. It wasn't correct. If you exclude this war and that war to suit your own reasons, expect a challenge.

OP posts:
Ihatetomatoes · 01/06/2026 08:30

MarmaladeorJam · 01/06/2026 08:21

So when making claim just a war that Israel is involved in. 🤔

Don't do that.

Don't make a cheap, unwarranted anti semite implication about me please.

Read the dialogue between the poster and me, get up to speed on the content of that conversation, then ask me questions.

I challenged your comment, as all posters are allowed to do. It's not a private conversation on an open forum.

OP posts:
MarmaladeorJam · 01/06/2026 08:38

Ihatetomatoes · 01/06/2026 08:25

You said:

"If you look at the numbers of people killed over the last 20 years, the biggest threat to everyone in that region is statistically Israel.

By a huge country mile."

Actually:

Over the last 20 years, the conflicts with the highest estimated death tolls are the Syrian Civil War, the Tigray War, and the Iraq War.

Why discount those. They are wars, whether others involved or not, or do those deaths not count for some strange reason.

Details:

Syrian Civil War (2011–2024): Estimates range from roughly 500,000 to 650,000+ direct and indirect fatalities before the collapse of the Assad government.

Iraq War and Insurgency (2003–2011): This prolonged conflict resulted in approximately 300,000+ violent and indirect deaths.

(I didn't realise that the Yemani civil war, just over 20 years sho resulted in 377,000, according to the UN)

War is absolutely awful. ALL wars are awful.

Edited

This is the last time I will answer you specifically as I suspect you are not dealing with me in good faith.

The chat was not about war in general. If it was, then your point would stand.

As it was not about war in general, this "Why discount those. They are wars, whether others involved or not, or do those deaths not count for some strange reason." is off piste and your second effort to paint me as an anti semite.

Twiglets1 · 01/06/2026 09:09

MarmaladeorJam · 01/06/2026 08:38

This is the last time I will answer you specifically as I suspect you are not dealing with me in good faith.

The chat was not about war in general. If it was, then your point would stand.

As it was not about war in general, this "Why discount those. They are wars, whether others involved or not, or do those deaths not count for some strange reason." is off piste and your second effort to paint me as an anti semite.

The chat appeared to be about wars in that region (the ME)?

As you said, Look at statistics from the region, country by country.

Ihatetomatoes · 01/06/2026 09:17

MarmaladeorJam · 01/06/2026 08:38

This is the last time I will answer you specifically as I suspect you are not dealing with me in good faith.

The chat was not about war in general. If it was, then your point would stand.

As it was not about war in general, this "Why discount those. They are wars, whether others involved or not, or do those deaths not count for some strange reason." is off piste and your second effort to paint me as an anti semite.

You really don't like being challenged do you. It's not personal, posters challenge others if they disagree with a point made. I saw your point to another poster and challenged it. Simple as that. You stated your comment was in context of your conversation flow with them. I challenged and you responded with your reasoning.

OP posts:
MarmaladeorJam · 01/06/2026 09:35

Twiglets1 · 01/06/2026 09:09

The chat appeared to be about wars in that region (the ME)?

As you said, Look at statistics from the region, country by country.

This is the quote that I engaged with:

Have you noticed how over the years since it came to existence Israel became more and more like its neighbours, but with added bonus of having more money and support from the West? I wonder why that is. Could it be because it was constantly attacked?

This bit in particular - Could it be because it was constantly attacked?

The discussion is about Israel being constantly attacked, and as a result, one would presume, particularly vulnerable.

The discussion is not about Middle Eastern wars in general.

Excluding Oct 7th (where 1,137 Israelis were slaughtered, and then approx 70,000 Palestinians were slaughtered) roughly 1,000 Palestinians are killed every year by Israel.

Roughly two dozen Israelis are killed every year by Palestinian terrorists.

Those numbers make me question this statement - Could it be because it was constantly attacked?

Israel is not constantly attacked.

It is attacked sometimes.

It cause more damage to others then they cause to it.

Twiglets1 · 01/06/2026 12:19

MarmaladeorJam · 01/06/2026 09:35

This is the quote that I engaged with:

Have you noticed how over the years since it came to existence Israel became more and more like its neighbours, but with added bonus of having more money and support from the West? I wonder why that is. Could it be because it was constantly attacked?

This bit in particular - Could it be because it was constantly attacked?

The discussion is about Israel being constantly attacked, and as a result, one would presume, particularly vulnerable.

The discussion is not about Middle Eastern wars in general.

Excluding Oct 7th (where 1,137 Israelis were slaughtered, and then approx 70,000 Palestinians were slaughtered) roughly 1,000 Palestinians are killed every year by Israel.

Roughly two dozen Israelis are killed every year by Palestinian terrorists.

Those numbers make me question this statement - Could it be because it was constantly attacked?

Israel is not constantly attacked.

It is attacked sometimes.

It cause more damage to others then they cause to it.

Well you were the one who said look at statistics from the region 🤷🏼‍♀️

SisterTeatime · 01/06/2026 13:18

MarmaladeorJam · 01/06/2026 09:35

This is the quote that I engaged with:

Have you noticed how over the years since it came to existence Israel became more and more like its neighbours, but with added bonus of having more money and support from the West? I wonder why that is. Could it be because it was constantly attacked?

This bit in particular - Could it be because it was constantly attacked?

The discussion is about Israel being constantly attacked, and as a result, one would presume, particularly vulnerable.

The discussion is not about Middle Eastern wars in general.

Excluding Oct 7th (where 1,137 Israelis were slaughtered, and then approx 70,000 Palestinians were slaughtered) roughly 1,000 Palestinians are killed every year by Israel.

Roughly two dozen Israelis are killed every year by Palestinian terrorists.

Those numbers make me question this statement - Could it be because it was constantly attacked?

Israel is not constantly attacked.

It is attacked sometimes.

It cause more damage to others then they cause to it.

Israel is constantly attacked, but they have incredibly good defences in place.

Ellen2shoes · 01/06/2026 13:52

MarmaladeorJam · 31/05/2026 21:20

If you look at the numbers of people killed over the last 20 years, the biggest threat to everyone in that region is statistically Israel.

By a huge country mile.

Israel is an extremely aggressive, expansionist country that very cleverly presents itself as the victim.

These figures are from Jan:

Using publicly available data, Oxfam calculated that number of average deaths per day for Gaza is significantly higher than any recent major armed conflict including Syria (96.5 deaths per day), Sudan (51.6), Iraq (50.8), Ukraine (43.9) Afghanistan (23.8) and Yemen (15.8).

https://www.oxfam.org.uk/media/press-releases/daily-death-rate-in-gaza-higher-than-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam/

That was 2 years ago. Last year, it came to light that the death rate had been underreported so figures should be even higher.

Of course Israel is the biggest threat.

It is busy attacking as we type, right now, killing civilians in Lebanon and Gaza violating ceasefires on both fronts.

Oxfam GB | Daily death rate in Gaza higher than any other major 21st Century conflict - Oxfam

https://www.oxfam.org.uk/media/press-releases/daily-death-rate-in-gaza-higher-than-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam/

MarmaladeorJam · 01/06/2026 14:02

@Ellen2shoes A very uncomfortable, but undeniable truth.

It is way more dangerous to be Palestinian or Lebanese than it is to be Israeli.

Ihatetomatoes · 01/06/2026 14:36

Ellen2shoes · 01/06/2026 13:52

These figures are from Jan:

Using publicly available data, Oxfam calculated that number of average deaths per day for Gaza is significantly higher than any recent major armed conflict including Syria (96.5 deaths per day), Sudan (51.6), Iraq (50.8), Ukraine (43.9) Afghanistan (23.8) and Yemen (15.8).

https://www.oxfam.org.uk/media/press-releases/daily-death-rate-in-gaza-higher-than-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam/

That was 2 years ago. Last year, it came to light that the death rate had been underreported so figures should be even higher.

Of course Israel is the biggest threat.

It is busy attacking as we type, right now, killing civilians in Lebanon and Gaza violating ceasefires on both fronts.

  • Deaths per day statistics are based on civilian and combatant deaths.
  • According to UNOCHA, there were 23,074 reported deaths in Gaza between 7 October 23 and 7 January 24, an average of 250.8 per day and 330 deaths so far in the West Bank.
  • Deaths per day statistics for Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Yemen from: Human Cost of Post-9/11 Wars: Direct War Deaths in Major War Zones, Afghanistan (October 2001 – October 2019); Iraq (March 2003 – October 2019); Syria (September 2014-October 2019); Yemen (October 2002-October 2019); and Other. Neta C. Crawford and Catherine Lutz, November 13, 2019. These are recorded for the entire of each of these conflicts, not just the first heavy assaults of the conflice. The Gaza figures are from a shorter period of the conflict.

Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #88 | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - Occupied Palestinian Territory

Intense Israeli bombardments from air, land, and sea continued across much of the Gaza Strip on 9 January, particularly in the Deir al Balah and Khan Younis governorates. The offensive in these areas results in the killing and injury of many people and...

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-88

OP posts:
Ellen2shoes · 01/06/2026 14:55

What is your point?

Twiglets1 · Yesterday 06:55

MarmaladeorJam · 01/06/2026 14:02

@Ellen2shoes A very uncomfortable, but undeniable truth.

It is way more dangerous to be Palestinian or Lebanese than it is to be Israeli.

Edited

Very dangerous to be Palestinian in particular seeing as Hamas is so embedded in Gaza they are the actual government.

Hamas start wars they can't win with their much more powerful neighbour and provide no protection whatsoever for their citizens so yes - no wonder it is very dangerous to be Palestinian.

MarmaladeorJam · Yesterday 13:31

Twiglets1 · Yesterday 06:55

Very dangerous to be Palestinian in particular seeing as Hamas is so embedded in Gaza they are the actual government.

Hamas start wars they can't win with their much more powerful neighbour and provide no protection whatsoever for their citizens so yes - no wonder it is very dangerous to be Palestinian.

When foreign governments interfere with the political process of a country, in a way, they evade it, but by different means.

They impose their will on the people of that county.

As such, they take away that populations freedom.

Most revolutions are people fighting for their freedom.

The G.W. Bush administration, led by Sec. of State, Condoleeza Rice pushed for (forced) elections in Gaza. They spent a lot of money backing the wrong horse, which led to a Hamas win. That took them by surprise, but not others.

In the 2000s, all the way up to 2020, Netanyahu continued his strategic destabilizing of Gaza. Going one way, this involved funding Hamas (through Qatar). And going the other way, it involved painting the Palestinian people as terrorist friendly, after all, they elect them?

Hamas always has been, and always will be, a monster, and the Dr. Frankenstein in this case, is the US and Israel combination.

The Palestinian people have had their dignity, humanity, and all freedoms - philosophic, spiritual and temporal stolen by international actors.

Israel is not a victim here.

And Palestinians are not criminals.

Justification of this is participation, and it needs to stop.

Twiglets1 · Yesterday 13:35

MarmaladeorJam · Yesterday 13:31

When foreign governments interfere with the political process of a country, in a way, they evade it, but by different means.

They impose their will on the people of that county.

As such, they take away that populations freedom.

Most revolutions are people fighting for their freedom.

The G.W. Bush administration, led by Sec. of State, Condoleeza Rice pushed for (forced) elections in Gaza. They spent a lot of money backing the wrong horse, which led to a Hamas win. That took them by surprise, but not others.

In the 2000s, all the way up to 2020, Netanyahu continued his strategic destabilizing of Gaza. Going one way, this involved funding Hamas (through Qatar). And going the other way, it involved painting the Palestinian people as terrorist friendly, after all, they elect them?

Hamas always has been, and always will be, a monster, and the Dr. Frankenstein in this case, is the US and Israel combination.

The Palestinian people have had their dignity, humanity, and all freedoms - philosophic, spiritual and temporal stolen by international actors.

Israel is not a victim here.

And Palestinians are not criminals.

Justification of this is participation, and it needs to stop.

You seem to be arguing with yourself, Marmalade.

I agree Israel is not a victim and Palestinians are not criminals, apart from those that are Hamas militants. They are terrorists.

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