It's not about genocide but about winning

[Mikkymik]

Further to my reply in the (now full) famine thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5396637-a-famine-has-been-declared-in-gaza-city?page=40&reply=146639624

I should point out that in my above post I've accepted - for argument's sake - that Israel is committing war crimes in its mission to win.

What Israel is absolutely not doing nor is it intent on doing, is genocide. Israel's aim is to win, which means disarming of Gaza and the return of the hostages. Once that happens not one more Palestinian has to die. It's not about killing a people (genocide) but about winning at all costs.

And frankly, as I said, the onus is on Gaza to surrender, seeing as they started this futile war.

Are we just going to keep ignoring Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory, which long pre-dated Hamas? Their decades long oppression, leaving Palestine unable to thrive? Netanyahu’s declaration he is against a two state solution? Him not wanting Palestine next door goes way beyond wanting Israel to be secure.

When have the Palestinians ever indicated they would be agreeable to a two state solution?

Starting with the rejection of the partition plan, all the way through Camp David and later the Olmert offer, they have consistently rejected any kind of peace plan that leaves the Jews with even an inch of sovereignty.

This is the majority popular opinion to this day, as is evident by both official polls and unofficial polling eg The Ask Project.

Over the last couple of decades, interest in the two state option has been fairly matched between Israeli people and Palestinian people. High to begin with and decreasing as time went on.

So we agree the UN are biased due to alliances or historic grievances.

They haven’t.

Neither side seems to want it.

The general assembly yes. Humanitarian entities working under the U.N. label, not necessarily.

@Twiglets1

The Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and handing it over to the Palestinians was a huge step in the direction of complete Palestinian statehood. If only they'd seized the opportunity to build their own autonomous enclave, rather than using it as a base to attack Israel almost from day one.

The difference between Israeli antipathy to the TSS and Palestinian opposition, is Israelis aren't convinced it will bring peace. On the contrary, they rightfully suspect it will just bring Palestinian terrorism closer to home.

The majority of Israelis, and that includes much of the right, were once pro TSS if it would mean long term peace. Over the years they've come to understand that it would just bring the opposite.

Whereas the Palestinian opposition is rooted in their refusal to grant the Jews even an inch of sovereignty in the Holy Land. They don't oppose the TSS out of fear, but out of hatred.

If you look into why they couldn’t (and still can’t) be autonomous, you’ll very quickly see that that’s on Israel too. Who controlled all border into Gaza effectively controlling its ability to export/import and become autonomous. Who provides permits to Palestinians that they need to do pretty much anything (build schools, medical facilities, water systems) and rejects them over 90% of the time? Who rips down those building if they don’t get a permit? Who allows illegal settlements and violent settler activity?

For anyone who doesn’t know about this stuff, please do some research into what Palestinians were actually able to do for themselves over the past few decades. I don’t mind explaining over and over but if you want to keep saying that allPalestinians were too busy being evil bloodthirsty psychopaths to bother becoming autonomous, at least try and check if your opinion is grounded in any actual fact. Palestinians didn’t have autonomy of their lives/land/movement. They weren’t treated as equal. Perfect example - Palestinian children are tried as adults military court. Settler children (who are illegally on Palestinian land) are tried as children in civil court.

All of this context matters, including when we assess why both sides went off the idea of a two state option and why there is so much hatred. It doesn’t make any act of terrorism acceptable. It doesn’t justify the actions of Hamas but if we ignore all this history, it’ll just repeat itself and, as I’ve stressed before, this means more Palestinian AND more Israeli deaths.

Thanks for your explanation

As I’ve mentioned before, whereas I used to be in favour of a 2 state solution now I doubt that it is possible, unfortunately.

In 2018, it was 53% and 58% in favour of a two state solution (Palestinians then Israelis)

In 2020, it was 43% and 42% in favour of a two state solution (Palestinians then Israelis)

In 2023, it was down to 33% and 34%.

I know poll data isn’t perfect but I don’t think it is fair to say that there was no interest in a two state solution. It totally ignores what actual Palestinians and Israelis have said over time.

More against it than in favour of it even before 7/10/23 and the violent aftermath.

Please research the treatment of Palestinians/limitations on their lives over the past couple of decades before you take any of this as fact. Telling Palestinians they should‘ve ‘seized the opportunity’ is grossly unfair and erases the actual reality of Israel/Palestinian relations

@PinkBobby
Who controlled all border into Gaza effectively controlling its ability to export/import and become autonomous. Who provides permits to Palestinians that they need to do pretty much anything (build schools, medical facilities, water systems) and rejects them over 90% of the time? Who rips down those building if they don’t get a permit? Who allows illegal settlements and violent settler activity?

Leaving aside the first part, which was necessary for Israel in order to at least limit the number of weapons brought into Gaza, the rest is simply untrue. And even the first part was pretty relaxed up until the democratic elections when Gazans voted in the death cult named Hamas.

Israel didn't control any part of civilian infrastructure in Gaza post 2005, nor did they enter Gaza to rip down any buildings. And certainly there were no settlers there. Not even dead Jews remained in Gaza post 2005.

Ever since 2005, Palestinians in Gaza were ruled solely by the freely elected Gazan government, aka Hamas. Any mistreatment they suffered cannot be blamed on the Jews. Unfortunately.

I can go back further when that wasn’t the case. But even in recent history, it wasn’t like there was no interest in two states.

So the blockade on Gaza was purely weapons based. Everything else was allowed in? Please actually research how the blockade affected things like water systems, hospitals, the free movement of people etc before you conclude that Hamas were the only ones who had an impact on Gaza.

And Palestinians live in Gaza and the West Bank. The Israeli government’s treatment of ALL Palestinians needs to change.

As you know I'm a pragmatist.

It seems clear enough to me that neither side wants a 2 state solution now or will agree to it.

Maybe in the future - medium to long term after the war ends but not short term.

Obviously any mistreatment can’t be blamed on Jewish people. What an odd way to phrase it. The Israeli government past and present doesn’t represent or reflect on Jewish people.

Oh that I totally agree with you on that.

I was providing stats as there seemed to be a suggestion that Palestinian never had any interest in it and were all just desperate to destroy Israel. Maybe it was an unfair inference but in terms of interest in two states, Israeli and Palestinian people have been relatively similar in interest.

Well that's an interesting perspective. Explains a lot about the thread.

The blockade only started after Hamas was elected. And they managed to smuggle in a shitload of weapons, which raises the question why they couldn't smuggle in essentials.

The truth is that for those connected, pre-7 October Gaza was a beautiful seaside resort, replete with luxury villas and fancy malls.

As to the West Bank, what does that have anything to do with Gaza?

@Mikkymik Very interesting. No mention of the role Israel has played over the last few decades… it’s going to have a really tough time deradicalising anyone through education if it attempts to gaslight them into thinking Israel had no impact on them pre 7/10. It’s like them hearing Netenyahu say there is no starvation in Gaza when they’re watching their children die. It is literally pushing angry, heartbroken, desperate people into the hands of extremists.

Again, not condoning what Hamas did. No context makes terrorism acceptable but if we don’t bother looking at why people turn to extremism, there is zero chance of stopping it from happening again.

Why on earth should essentials needed to be smuggled in?

Oh and Palestinians live in Gaza and the West Bank. So all West Bank activity is relevant if we’re discussing peace between the two sides. Or are you hoping for a two tier Palestinian system? The ones in Gaza are going to be reeducated and looked after and the ones in the West Bank dehumanised?