Hamas ‘death culture’ beyond comprehension, says founder’s son

[Twiglets1]

Hamas’s embrace of “death culture” is beyond comprehension for much of the world, Mosab Hassan Yousef, the eldest son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef, the founder of the terrorist group, told JNS on Tuesday.

“It is not just the West, it’s also the East. It is beyond understanding that some people are willing to sacrifice human life for political gains, or worse for financial gains. I am a living example of this. My father had to choose between his eldest son and the cause and he chose the cause,” said Yousef.

“There is no parent in the world that would go into a fight that would put their own children in harm’s way. Hamas did the opposite. They went and dragged Israel in the most brutal fight of our time, knowing children would pay the price. This shows you their hypocrisy,” he continued.

“It’s the same game with pro-Palestinians worldwide. Everybody cries for the children on one hand, and on the other they are pushing Palestinian indoctrination which leads to the death of children. And then when children die, they blame Israel,” he added.

www.jns.org/hamas-death-culture-beyond-comprehension-says-founders-son/

It's very disingenuous to proclaim a lack of understanding as to why people suspect Pro Palestinian as Pro Hamas.
The typical Pro Palestinian claims peace seeking as their activist motivation, yet they do not censure Hamas or collaborative Gazans with as much loudness, prevalence or brio as they do every move of Israel and her diaspora.
The fact that many Pro Palestinians carry on as if there are not two sides in this war and that the losers, for whatever reason appears to think that they are running things and have something to run.
But Gaza is destroyed and Hamas is on its uppers.
But the Pro Palestinians have neither censured Hamas for leading Gazans to their deaths in the tens of thousands, nor for diverting and skimming aid, or for not building nary a bomb shelter for Gazans, or for using Gazans as shields.
And now, no loud cry to surrender unconditionally as Hamas' dereliction of duty and care for the citizens and place it lead is evident.
Instead, the care for Gazans is deflected to Israel by the same Pro Palestinian peace warriors who do a good impression of thinking that Israel ain't shit, but ironically worthy enough to be the engine of palliativity for Gazans, who out the other side of their necks, they claim that Israel have only inveigled to join Hamas in retaliation for bombing Gaza.
You ( general, but if the cap fits....) do not get to finger point and bask in moral superiority whilst not recognising the shaky foundations upon which your position lies.
The root of which most definitely does not seem to be the need for peace in Gaza. The actions of the Pro Palestinians on and offline do not support that assertion.
Hamas started this war. Hamas have lost this was. Yet Hamas will not surrender and uncontionally as losers who start wars are usually made to do.
In the meantime, Israel carries on defending herself and rightly so and Pro Palestinians criticise Israel and finger point , as is their right.
However the lack of censure for Hamas in light of the fact that Gaza is in famine mode and nothing will get better for Gaza whilst Hamas continue carrying on a war that it has lost......I'm not saying that Pro Palestinians are Hamas supporters
But their claims to want peace in Gaza is bullshit, by any up to date measure.
The online arguments do not support that narrative, the marches do not support that.
It takes one side to start a war and one side to lose it.
A war cannot end if the loser does not recognise that they have lost.

The US took too long to recognise this fact in the Vietnam war.
The Japanese army were never going to recognise their reality in WW2 and we know what happened there.
So why not the root and branch call from Pro Pals to tell Hamas to get to fuck as the Gazans are suffering due to the obtuseness of Hamas?
Why the demonisation of Israel, but expectation that she be the gatekeeper of Gazan welfare whilst still defending herself in a war Hamas refuse to lose, but have lost?

Anything but pearl clutching at assertion that I do find the typical WESTERN Pro Palestinian position to be fraudulent at best.

@EasyTouch Thank you for putting it into words. From my perspective, what I find equally alarming is what's happening in the UK, where Hamas doctrine gains traction without anyone even recognising it as such. I'm really worried about where this could be leading us all.

Well said @EasyTouch

'And now, no loud cry to surrender unconditionally as Hamas' dereliction of duty and care for the citizens and place it lead is evident. Instead, the care for Gazans is deflected to Israel by the same Pro Palestinian peace warriors '

Yes it is fascinating when pushed that the odd one will mutter 'well of course hamas are bad' <whilst swiftly changing the sublect> but there's no loud protests telling them to surrender, it's always Israel who are the target for blame and hate.

As an aside I cannot believe that a disabled basketball team turned their back on the Israel team when their anthem was played. Surely, surely they'd know more than many other people that hate, discrimination and intolerance is not acceptable.

For all your huff and puff about the actions of Israel being justified there are people who don’t care about religious wars that think the actions of Hamas were criminal but the reaction of Isreal is a war crime. Indefensible. The killing of civilians, women, children, medics, rescue workers and deliberate starvation of the weakest, occupation of land and forced displacement to allow illegal settlement.

The actions of Israel won’t just fuel support of groups like Hamas but will fuel antisemitism in the diaspora.

The right wing in the West are already coming for the easiest to pick off and criminalising the innocent poor and disabled. But the easiest target of all are those that practice a different religion, pray in a different building, look different, have a different culture etc but occupy higher social positions - your landlord or your employer. There is precedence for this. Even if you don’t support a corrupt regime.

If the world goes to pot in a right wing handcart do you really think you will be fine?

'If the world goes to pot in a right wing handcart do you really think you will be fine?'

I'd rather 'go to pot in a right wing handcart' than live with suicidal maniac terrorists running the place thanks.

Israel's responses to hamas' atrocities and kidnappings are called consequences.

All hamas have to do is surrender don't you agree?

I’m sorry you feel that way but I see a very clear distinction between a terrorist organisation and its members and, at the very least, children in a war zone. Following from that, I see a clear distinction between people giving those innocent children a voice and people supporting a violent terrorist organisation. I guess you could see it as someone speaking up for the people of Gaza as they neither warring side are seemingly interested in their interests.

I actually find it quite strange that ‘pro-Palestinian’ is even a term. Why wouldn’t you be keen to protect the innocent especially when they are at danger from both sides of the conflict. The wording itself means we are somehow at a point where the narrative is pro-Palestinian v pro Israel. When the conflict is actually between Hamas and Israel with Palestinians stuck in between. It should be pro- Israel v Pro-Hamas (so the classic good against evil). I would say I started off very much pro-Israel in this war and pro Palestinians. Despite the historical issues, I didn’t think that it would be so difficult to remain this way. But, to me, Israel’s actions have meant that you now seemingly have to pick between supporting Israel or supporting innocent people. Hamas almost don’t get a look in because we all know they are terrorists and need to go. My view now is that I’m pro-Palestinian and ‘anti’ the Israeli government. I have no idea what people in Israel actually think about the war and I wouldn’t for a second group them in with their government’s choices (just as I’m not happy about everything our government is currently doing).

And the finger pointing I see in your post is that no pro-Palestinian people are invested in peace and haven’t spoken out against Hamas. I think you are not listening to the other side if that is your conclusion. My usual caveat is that plenty of awful extremists will be using this spread antisemitism and I will criticise those people whenever I interact with them. I do the same for people who share Islamophobic views/sources. I have no patience for any extremism in debates or in politics. But peace for Israelis and Palestinians is obviously the aim. And my issue with Israel is that they are not in my option, thinking long term. I believe they are risking many many more Israeli lives being lost because of the government’s decision making. Telling people who have watched their child fade away that there is no hunger or bombing a emergency department when people are in critical condition, or destroying everyone’s homes in the pursuit of the enemy is, in my opinion, a pretty quick way of recruiting new members of Hamas. These members might fight now or they might hold onto their hatred and in 5-10 years time there will be a new group with the very same aims. So your suggestion that I don’t want peace is false. I want peace for Palestinians and Israelis for longer than 5minutes. I want the Palestinians to be given another way to live and the only way to do that is by Israel showing them humanity. Again, my criticism isn’t aimed at Hamas because they will only seek to exploit devastated people. So Israel has to do the hard work. Unfair? Yes. Worth it? I really really hope so.

I find the ‘why aren’t you telling Hamas to surrender’ line frustrating because I think it suggests that Hamas are like any other enemy. Realistically, I think Hamas in some form will last long after this war. Like AQ. Like ISIS. These groups spread around the world and have their moment(s) of power. They will always be a threat to Israel (either under Hamas or under a new band post war) and anyone else it decides to set in its sights. I’m not saying this makes the conflict pointless but I do think pretending they are suddenly going to play by our rules and ‘surrender’ is naive. They are terrorists, they are happy to die for their cause and the idea they’ll just move on shows a lack of understanding for extremism. Just as I accept that the military tactics in this war must be extremely challenging because of Hamas’s tactics, I believe any diplomacy with Hamas is fundamentally pointless. That’s why I don’t see any point marching or protesting for Hamas to surrender or conduct themselves with some degree of humanity. 7/10 alone proves that they do not do humanity. Israel, in my opinion, are the only growns up in the room. The only one who can deal with this in any sort of humane or reasonable way. I’m not saying this doesn’t mean death and destruction - that’s war - but I do believe that some of their tactics have stooped to a terrible low for a western democracy.

Finally, because I have written plenty for now, I think it is interesting that people think the UK has become a terrorist sympathiser or there is some overwhelming surge in pro-terrorist sentiment. A lot of us have grown up in an age where Islamic extremism hangs over us. If anything, we are much more likely to be Islamophobic (which is reflected in the number of Islamophobic attacks - up something like 75% in the past two years). I know that similar can be said of antisemitic attacks. As I said before, hateful people will always use things like this for their own awful agenda.

Im sorry if I haven’t covered all your points but hopefully enough of them to provide you with my perspective.

So not all extremism is bad, then? Just the type that wouldn’t target you?

I completely disagree with this narrative about Pro-Palestinians.

Was Russia's ban from the Olympics due to a hatred of Russia's or the consequence of its actions in Ukraine?

Israel is going to see a lot of increasing protests against its role in Gaza and the West Bank. The world is a very different place now due to social media and the availability of information. By refusing to hold Israel to account for its actions and seeing events predominantly through the lens of antisemitism you will incorrectly identify the motives behind protests against Israel and only serve to isolate pro-Israelis.

Its hard to imagine the impact of social media on views of support for Palestine/Gaza. The algorithms are certainly polarising but I defy anyone to watch day after day bodies under the rubble etc and not have huge sympathies for Palestinians and want to stop their suffering.

Israel time after time has chosen an aggressive military option rather than what is arguably a more effective diplomatic option and should rightly be criticised for jeopardising the peace and security of both Israelis and Palestinians.

'Israel time after time has chosen an aggressive military option rather than what is arguably a more effective diplomatic option and should rightly be criticised for jeopardising the peace and security of both Israelis and Palestinians.'

Israel should be criticised for jeopardising the peace and security? I mean seriously. I've heard it all now .

Yes IDF soldiers, go and be diplomatic in the tunnels with those murderous barbarians. They might share some loot if you ask them nicely. Tbh though I don't think hamas understand 'diplomatic options'.

Firstly, in relation to your last point, I think you do have useful things to add to this debate. We don’t see eye to eye but people existing in echo chambers with only similar views isn’t good for politics or for progress/tolerance etc. Personally, every person who questions or outright argues with things I say forces me to rethink my perspective and point of view. I think that process can be uncomfortable or frustrating but I think it is important.

Re your first comment, I think what I’m trying to say is (and this is all opinion) I don’t think the IDF are on a mission to kill all Gazans. I think there are some extremists in the army who commit war crimes but I am not convinced that is widespread or that it is some sort of policy. I think there are extremists in the government but I think even they are content with driving Gazans out of that land rather than just killing them all (although some have said things that make me unsure).

What I fear is that when weighing up a Hamas death vs an innocent person’s death, Israel put much more weight on the former. So when they have a target in a place with children, they still choose to kill at the expense of however many civilians. I believe they don’t take all necessary precautions to protect the innocent because they are so driven to destroy Hamas. I understand the reasoning - Hamas have caused great collective trauma to the country and they have committed the worst crimes against individuals. And I know that Hamas’s tactics make differentiating between enemy and civilian hard. But with the rhetoric, the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank and Israel’s own issues with racism, my fear is that they see Palestinians as expendable and that is why I speak out against the actions of the government. Cutting off aid and then only letting a small amount in - what’s the cost to civilians? Bombing medical facilities - what’s the cost to civilians? Militarising aid - what’s the cost to civilians? Displacing millions over and over again? What’s the cost?

So it’s not that think that Israel are evil. I don’t think any country can be. It’s a group of individuals. I understand why they want to get rid of Hamas. But I speak out for the innocent children of Gaza above everyone else because I don’t believe in the ‘destroy Hamas at all costs.’ line. Why? Because mixing up a lot of innocent people in that mission is the fastest way to either bolster Hamas’s numbers or create a whole new group that want to retaliate, just as Israel wanted to on 8/10. And that brings more devastation to Israel. It’s a vicious cycle and I personally don’t want it to continue.

You cant occupy a peoples territory for decades and work to actively thwart their chances for statehood. Repeatedly chose aggresive militarily escalations over diplomatic options and bury your head in sand shouting antisemitism when the world critises you for it.

Or you can but ive got no sympathy for it. And im going to keep criticising Israel and their supporters whislst fighting against antisemitism.

This perspective is interesting if you want to google - Face-to-Face: Former Hostage Moran Stela Yanai Challenges UCLA Protest Leader Mosab Hassan Yousef is on the same platform, it's a 2 part debate.

I've been trying to find more recent views from her.

The OP segues directly from criticism of Hamas to effectively justify the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the illegal settlement of the West Bank.

Hamas is indeed beyond the pale and shouldn’t be ruling anywhere.

However, civilians are civilians, even if they misguidedly support Hamas. Punishment of civilian populations is a war crime.

Israel has every right to invade Gaza and remove Hamas. They have zero right to hold on to Gaza and force the citizens to relocate, or to use starvation as a tool of war.

I appreciate your thoughtful post, @PinkBobby. I wish other "pro-Palestinian" CITME posters took such a balanced view. I've seen some terrible shit thrown around, particularly in the immediate aftermath of 7 Oct when the forum seemed to be dominated by voices mocking Israel and accusing them of inventing the whole story ("what rapes? show us the films, show us the test kit evidence", etc) and/or carrying out the attacks themselves ("but all the dead were killed by Israeli tank fire!")... as part of some cynical land grab exercise, or maybe even just for fun (it was sometimes hard to discern posters' logic). There were also heaps of spamming threads just pasting in dubious links from X/Insta without comment. If you were around back then, and especially if you started out with some sympathy for Israel, you'll remember how shocking the CITME was for a long time. I'll never forget it, and it's coloured my views on here ever since.

I have no idea what people in Israel actually think about the war and I wouldn’t for a second group them in with their government’s choices (just as I’m not happy about everything our government is currently doing).

Not sure if you saw the "I'm a Jewish Israeli - AMA" thread that was started in December 2023 and fizzled out in late February of this year (which perhaps speaks volumes), but her penultimate post was very poignant:

Today in Israel we woke up to thunder and rain, as if G-d himself raged and wept with us. I left the supermarket balancing a box of strawberries on my hand - a small treat but my child is the same age as Ariel Bibas and we are all hugging our children closer today. "It's a difficult day," said a random women as I passed her. In the bakery, the radio was playing sad songs. Yet another message from psychologists came round on WhatsApp: "how to help your children cope with the news" - together with the fervent hope that he's too young, he won't hear about it, he won't see the sadness on the grownups' faces.

The return of Shiri, Ariel and Kfir Bibas and Oded Lipshitz in coffins is devastating. Not just because they are four more victims of this war, but because they symbolise the absolute evil of an enemy who sees nothing as an illegitimate target: not a 9-month old baby and not a peace activist in his 80s who was a committed socialist who had worked as a journalist reporting on the Sabra and Shatila massacre in the 1980s and volunteered to drive Gazan patients to their appointments at Israeli hospitals. The news of the death of the Bibas family, while only officially announced yesterday, cannot have come as a surprise to any Israeli: they were not released in November 2023, and we know that by the time of the current deal, at least, the numbers of living and dead hostages released by Hamas matched Israeli intelligence, but still, Hamas's cruel psychological warfare, which included faking pictures of the death of Daniella Gilboa, who was released alive, fuelled the optimism that so many people wished to cling to.

A rabbi friend of mine wrote an honest post on social media (I'm not quoting by name to protect their identity but it was a public post):
Yesterday I lit a memorial candle and two small candles at home. What does that help? What can be done? Maybe that's all that's left.
Soon I will travel to plant olive trees with [in a Palestinian area, in an interfaith gathering]. How far I am in my heart from peace, how much I believe in it as a distant dream...
I no longer believe in two states.
I do not believe that the Palestinians as a group want to live alongside us in peace.
I believe in planting olive trees and living in peace with anyone who is willing to live in peace with us.
I do believe in that: in planting olive trees in difficult moments. So that someone, one day, will enjoy the good oil of this land. And live in peace.
//

Today is a day for grief. But with the grief I feel rage.

Rage at Hamas for crossing every red line and spitting on the most basic image of humanity, including holding a sick ceremony this morning in front of hundreds of onlookers, with the coffins of the dead hostages in front of a backdrop of their pictures framed by blood. It is difficult to cope with this sadisic, manipulative cruelty even when I know that the manipulation is aimed at me, us, the Israeli public; aimed at manipulating us into baying for the war whose continuation is Hamas's only chance for survival.

Rage that though the Israeli leadership apparently knew of the fate of the Bibas family since November 2023 when they were not released in the ceasefire deal, yet declined to release that information until yesterday, because it was expedient for them for us to cling onto belief - just as ten years earlier, in 2014, they allowed us to pray for weeks for the safety of three teenage boys kidnapped by Hamas, while all the time they knew the boys had been murderd that day. Rage that they did not even release the information after Yarden Bibas was freed, leading him to spend his first two weeks of freedom in psychological torture, hoping for their release then having his hopes dashed - not to mention the psychological torture of the whole nation, for whom the Bibas children, more than anyone, represented the hostage crisis. Rage at the Israeli government who abandoned its citizens, before and after Oct 7, knowing that the bombing campaign would endanger the hostages who were being used as human shields. We don't know what happened to these four hostages, but we do know that not everything was done to free them and others.

My friend is right: it is hard to imagine how we get from here to peace. After our hearts have been shattered again and again for a year I find myself asking: is this it, is this the worst? Can we begin to rebuild now? Or do I need to continue to brace myself? But as he also wrote: even when the picture is dark, we must continue to plant trees, continue to plant the seeds of hope. Because if we don't merit to enjoy the fruits of the trees, we still must not give up hope that others will.

During the time I have spent writing the post, the bodies of the four hostages have been transferred first to the Red Cross then to Israeli hands. Oded, Shiri, Ariel and Kfir, your souls can go free now, as you return to the gentle earth from which you came. We all wish things had been otherwise, and our tears are both grief and guilt that they weren't. I hope that in the world of souls, Ariel Bibas is running alongside Hind Rajab while Kfir tries to catch up, while Shiri sits with Mohamed Abuel-Qomasan's wife and dotes over her twins, and Oded Lifshitz looks on with a grandfatherly smile.

May we merit to hold onto hope and remember the dead by planting the seeds that make things better, not worse.
למלחמה אין מנצחים
There are no winners in war

www.mumsnet.com/talk/AMA/4967191-im-a-jewish-israeli-ama?postsby=israelilefty&page=8

Thank you for resharing the AMA thread. I found it after it had tailed off but read it with interest/horror/sadness. I feel like there are so many individual accounts of this conflict which will eventually come to light and each will be enlightening and disturbing.

Perhaps unfairly, I feel the Israeli population are more free at this point to express their anger/sadness/frustration with Hamas, their government, feeling helpless. Whereas I feel like many Palestinians are voiceless and their support polarised. Perhaps that’s why I feel it’s right to talk about their reality on places like here.

I think you’re right - I have seen some comments on here that are very disturbing. I’m not sure if it’s the anonymity but people confidently assert misinformation/statements that are really harmful. I resist reporting comments because I feel like people should live with saying such terrible things and face the feedback (after all, we are all allowed our opinions but we have to take the feedback/rebuttals that come with sharing what we think. More so, we have to be aware that facts and opinions are not equal). But perhaps by not reporting these things I am helping those comments spread. It’s tough but I will stay and listen and contribute in the hope that this will end with the Palestinian people finding peace in Gaza and Israelis enjoying peace in Israel.

At some point the war in Gaza will end either with Hamas remaining in power or being forcibly removed from power.

It is not lost on me that the Islamic terrorist attacks in the UK and even 9/11 were not from angry terrorists coming from another country but by people who were radicalised in the West.

With the level of support and coverage the Palestinian cause is getting in the West, I am genuinely concerned about future terrorist attacks in the West.

So agree

Yes, me too... and that also makes me nervous about blaming Israel for everything, including Hamas, because it just feeds into that warped fundamentalist ideology that poses a threat not just to Israel but also to the Western world.

@PinkBobby I think you talk a lot of sense (and with compassion). I agree of course that Israeli voices can be heard more coherently, but again that says a lot about the tyranny of Hamas rather than Israeli privilege as such. I'm chuffed to bits that you read the AMA thread because it is certainly fascinating and tragic. I wish we were able to hear more Palestinian voices that don't just frame their suffering as Israel's fault entirely, but I doubt that is possible.

Everyone knows this guy is paid by Israel to spread anti palestinian propoganda. Hamas only exist because Israel has brutally colonised the region for 70 years plus.

@PinkBobby I agree that it seems strange to classify people on this board as “pro Palestinian” because surely we are nearly all pro Palestinian in terms of wanting the best for innocent civilians in Gaza.

But people who never have one good word to say about Israel still balk at being called “anti Israel” so we can’t use that term. Nor do they like the term pro Hamas because no one admits to that. So it’s a bit hard to know how to describe the other group to those of us who support Israel.

To call people Pro Palestinian is actually the most polite term we can use even if yes, it is a bit strange in some ways.

Everyone does not know that - it is your opinion.

This is an interesting point of view that I haven't heard before. Please could you direct me to any reading material that has led you to think the Arab Palestinians wanted one state with Jewish people free to live there with the same legal status as Arabs?
It was my understanding that Arab Palestinians wished for their own state the way so many Arab regional identities got theirs at that time- with the breakup of the former Ottoman empire.

Palestinians wanted their own state, yes. The majority of the people living in Palestine were muslim Arabs. There were jewish and Christian minorities, under the British mandate as there had been for centuries under the Ottomans. Obviously there was division and resentment caused by the rapid influx of Zionist immigration with a specifically separatist agenda, and the perception that the British administrators favoured those Zionists and facilitated that agenda. But apart from that Palestine was just like most other countries and proto-countries - it had a majority religion/culture and minority ones.

I've never read or heard of any evidence that in the leadup to 1948 the Palestinian Arabs wanted the jewish and Christian minorities ejected from their country, or agitated for a political solution that would be purely Arab/muslim without any minorities, which is what you seem to be suggesting. No I don't have anything to prove they didn't, but I think you've got the burden of proof the wrong way round: in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, surely we should assume they were happy for the ethnic mix of Palestine to continue the way it had always been.

And what about you?
Do you think Israel should exist? Or would you favour a 1SS?
What should have happened in 1947 / 8, in your opinion?

Blimey. One thing I certainly don't think is that I'm in a position to have any say over it. The whole point is that the Palestinians have the right to assert their nationhood and the international community need to start respecting that right. That's obviously going to involve intensive negotiations with Israel, which are almost impossible to conceive of working as things are right now. I'm probably like a lot of people in that I would be happy with ANY solution that means both sides have a workable country and they can stop killing each other.

If I could rewrite history, I would write Zionism out of it and allow Palestine to have developed as its own, singular, multi-ethnic state like the other ex-Ottoman mandates. But that involves looking much further back than 1947/8, and isn't particularly relevant anyway since I can't, and neither can anyone else.

As for what happens now - Israel exists, and I can't see any way that it's going to voluntarily sign up to its own non-existence. So a one state solution seems absolutely impossible, doesn't it?

Practically speaking, the only solution that has any chance of actually happening is two states. And even that seems unlikely for the forseeable future.

I think, conversely and maybe naively, that calling Israel out for their treatment of Palestinians make us less of a target than if we stood with them and turned a blind eye to what’s happening. I also accept that the UK will always be in the sights of Islamic extremists due to our history in the ME, our relationship with the US, and our celebration of diversity in all its forms.

I agree that Hamas play a huge role in silencing Palestinians - for decades in fact. Who knows how many dissenting voices were killed so everyone knew to keep their heads down. The lack of independent journalism in Gaza also silences them and that is on Israel. I think for Palestinians their anger is more easily aimed at Israel because of the scale of the destruction. Flattening most of Gaza, bombs killing civilians, making aid so hard to access, arming humanitarian workers - I appreciate this all circles back to Hamas but if it were me (rightly or wrongly), I’d be angry with the person who dropped a bomb on my family member or the people who blocked the aid coming in.

Sadly this is so true.