Hamas ‘death culture’ beyond comprehension, says founder’s son

[Twiglets1]

Hamas’s embrace of “death culture” is beyond comprehension for much of the world, Mosab Hassan Yousef, the eldest son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef, the founder of the terrorist group, told JNS on Tuesday.

“It is not just the West, it’s also the East. It is beyond understanding that some people are willing to sacrifice human life for political gains, or worse for financial gains. I am a living example of this. My father had to choose between his eldest son and the cause and he chose the cause,” said Yousef.

“There is no parent in the world that would go into a fight that would put their own children in harm’s way. Hamas did the opposite. They went and dragged Israel in the most brutal fight of our time, knowing children would pay the price. This shows you their hypocrisy,” he continued.

“It’s the same game with pro-Palestinians worldwide. Everybody cries for the children on one hand, and on the other they are pushing Palestinian indoctrination which leads to the death of children. And then when children die, they blame Israel,” he added.

www.jns.org/hamas-death-culture-beyond-comprehension-says-founders-son/

The idea that people don't care about something because apathy is a particularly circular argument. Why are people apathetic? Thats the question
Why are they not apathetic to the point of hysteria about Israel. Not just attacks, but Banning Jewish comedians, cancelling Jewish writers and artists, is going above and beyond not being 'apathetic' about Israel. I mean its really going out of your way to make a point.

Sorry if I wasn’t clear - my point was that people are apathetic towards other conflicts or issues and that is troubling/the issue. The outrage towards Israel is how we should react towards all similar issues but we don’t. Some don’t because of antisemitism, some defend Israel because of Islamophobia, and some people are outraged because of the LD argument above - we (unfairly) understand or expect two Muslim countries to be at war or for there to be famine in Africa or for Putin to commit war crimes. But when one of our own - a liberal democracy - acts like ‘them’, committing war crimes and engaging in propaganda spin re starvation etc., it is, to many, outrageous.

So to reiterate, I am not saying there is no antisemitism at play here. Plenty of people whether they like it or not, will be blinded by that in this conflict. I believe the same is true of Islamophobia. But lots of people are not in that group and to suggest we just need to do more reflecting or reading is, in my opinion, an unfair conclusion to make when someone disagrees with how you see things.

No denial of antisemitism (see pretty much every one of my posts) I just have a huge issue with the Daily Mail!

I think this is complete baloney. Sorry. Very few people in this country think Israel is 'one of our own' . There is nothing to back up your assertion that people in the UK have an affinity with either Israelis or Jews. The casual othering of Jewish people is completely endemic and always has been.

And actually no I don't think other conflicts generally should have this level of hystetia. I dont think Russians and Sudanese should be attacked in the streets. I don't think hysterical virtue signalling mobs should clog up cities every weekend for every conflict and injustice in the world.

Calm rational people are what we need.

I find it interesting that you think antisemitism is so deeply engrained. Out of interest, would you say the same of Islamophobia? @PinkBobby

Interesting that you find it interesting 😉

Islamophobia and Antisemitism can't be compared fairly though. Following Islam is a choice a person may make. Being born Jewish is not. I think that's a really important point. And radical Islam is a threat to those of us posting in the uk in a way that people being extremely Jewish isnt. Not all Jewish people are even religious- let alone radically, violently so. So I guess I'm uncomfortable with the 2 being compared.

However. Yes. I do believe Islamophobia is deeply embedded within our culture. I think most people are careful of being open about it though. In comparison, many people are open about their Antisemitism on here, without even realizing they are being antisemitic. See all the Holocaust Inversion, powerful Jews controlling the media tropes often used.

I dont see Islamophobia on here as often as I see Antisemitism. But of course that's partly a function of where I'm looking and what I'm focusing on.

What do you think?

We will have to agree to disagree but I think for the sake of progress and discussion, the fixation on one element of the Israel situation rather than as many as possible is a mistake. It simplifies the complexity of the issue.

As I have said many times, anti semitism is a significant issue and I am not looking to minimise that. Unfortunately ‘othering’ in that sense isn’t unique to the Jewish population in the Uk as shown by the graphic attached - Islamophobia and more broadly xenophobia is a massive problem in the UK right now. None are acceptable, all are based in hatred and all are being made worse by some of the rhetoric and misinformation around this conflict.

I know we are not going to disagree on this point but the othering of Jewish people in the UK doesn’t necessarily reflect on Israel’s identity in global politics or how it is viewed as a global player - it is still part of the liberal democracy group and thus must act like one.

And personally I think there should always be outrage at human rights violations or widespread killing or torture of hostages. I agree that that shouldn’t necessarily mean protests every moment of the day (if only from a police cost perspective) and I certainly don’t condone intimidation or violence towards people. I don’t think violence and human rights violations should just be accepted though. They should always be called out by as many people as possible because otherwise the world will become an even darker place.

Every human should act with respect for other humans rights. Those not part of a liberal democracy shouldn't get a free pass because of it.

For the life of me I cannot understand this refusal to hold terrorist / theocratic / dictator ruled states to the same standards as liberal democracies. Are the people living under them to be disregarded because of it? Should we expect no better and shake our heads and say, oh well, we cant expect them to behave, and just let them get on with it?

They're not toddlers. Theyre humans same as everyone else.

( yes yes I know toddlers are human- bloody unreasonable and completely self occupied though )

Replying to your second post first - I agree with you totally. But sadly, I think the reality is different to that ideal. The same should be expected of every human being but I don’t think it is. It’s the same sort of inequality you see when people watch starving children on morning tv and are immune to the pain and suffering. It’s not right but I do think it’s true that we care more about certain causes than others.

To your first post, you make interesting points re the difference between Jewish people and Muslim people. I’m going to respond with my immediate thoughts so they may be a little all over the place/include questions! I guess my thinking was focused on the similarities on the hatred side rather than the differences between the victims. When you mention the choice though, do you mean that a Muslim person could simply choose to give up their religion therefore it’s not as bad? I agree that radical Islam is a huge threat but in my opinion is that the assumption or suspicion that all Muslims are terrorists is just as harmful as any other type of racial hatred and I’m not sure I can accept a ranking of one being worse than the other.

I have seen and called out Islamophobia (comments or sources) and I have seen the same for antisemitism. I think you’re right in that the discussions on here quickly descend into Israel bashing (which I understand re its behaviour in Gaza/WB) but that is when the antisemitic voices appear and feel free to speak ‘their truth’. Again, antisemitism is a real issue and people need to reflect on their grouping of people (eg the Israeli government is not the same as any individual Israeli citizen or Jewish person) but I do think it is not the only issue at play in this conflict. And people calling out the behaviour of Israel’s government and army isn’t unfair because what they are doing is wrong.

But I never suggested that there shouldn't be outrage at human rights violations did I? I was an anti apartheid and Amnesty International activist for many years. Where did I suggest that violence should be accepted? The pattern of debate on here drives me insane.

I believe, and have said, there should be more outrage not less. Just that it should be consistently applied across the board, and be rational and cinstructive. What I object to in pro-Pal activism is the fetishisation rooted in racism and the social contagion element of it being a fashionable cause (exemplified by the numskulls who have no clue which river or which sea they are bellowing about). I don't think a lot of the activism is actually motivated by genuine concern for human rights or it wouldn't be aimed only at Israel it would be aimed equally at Hamas and at other nations in breach of human rights standards.

I think racism towards Jews actually is different to other forms of racism. It doesn't mean its worse. It doesn't other groups aren't suffering. But it is indisputably different. It beggars belief that this even needs saying, its been so well rehearsed (Jews Don't Count etc) but there you go. Here we are going round in circles. Again.

You're right the othering of Jews does not in one sense reflect the current global situation. It long predates the existence of the modern Israel and exists as a parallel current to the demonisation of Israel. Because the issue is deep rooted hatred and disrust of Jewish people.

Interested to know who do you think the land occupied by Israel after the 1967 war should have been given back to?

Was there any sovereign State of that land pre 1967?

That’s not to say I don’t believe the Palestinians should have their own State but I am interested in this argument of the pre 1967 borders.

Apologies - I was merely saying that we shouldn’t all be expected to be calm and rational when some of us may be closer to the conflict than others or have followed it for a long time.

Again, I think we should end this here as we’re going round in circles. But again, I think it is unfair of you to suggest that criticising Israel is down to deep rooted hatred of Jewish people, if only because there are plenty of Jewish people (including Israeli citizens) who are speaking out against the Israeli government.

Surely you can understand that there is a difference between Israelis criticising their own government and a keyboard warrior in Bristol who has absolutely no connection to the region being obsessed with this conflict, yet 'apathetic' about others going on in the world? Please tell me you can see the difference?

Its also ironic that at all times Israelis are expected to be calm and rational, acting to the purest liberal democratic standards, despite literally being closest to the conflict.

Criticizing Israel isnt antisemitic. Theres plenty to criticize at the moment.

Whats objectionable is criticizing Israel and not criticizing others for doing the same or worse, day after day, post after post. And frequently using antisemitic tropes to do so.

Otherwise known as expecting better of Israel than of others.

We cant know for sure if those people doing the above are antisemites for real, but they really, really look like it. And what's the real difference anyway... antisemitic on purpose or antisemitic by mistake, unconsciously, in ignorance?

I find it interesting that you think antisemitism is so deeply engrained. Out of interest, would you say the same of Islamophobia?

What sucked me into all this debate on MN was my shock in the immediate aftermath of 7/10. I expected to find some compassion here for the victims of such gut-wrenchingly barbaric atrocities, and instead found people crowing about it all and poking fun at Israel’s predicament.

That was long before Israel could be accused of any kind of disproportionate response. They were still struggling to identify the victims and work out WTF just happened.

Later, when more people were killed in Gaza and the hatred intensified against Israel, I remember one brave voice on here (you had to be brave, because any pro-Israel sentiment was met with accusations of baby murder) expressing something along the lines of: If you could make the number of deaths equal on both sides, but have Gazans endure the same kind of sadistic deaths, livestreamed on their phones to their families and friends, would that be OK?

Generic Islamophobia is irrational prejudice against an unknown culture, and people ignorant enough to feel that way about Muslims are probably equally likely to be antisemitic for the same reason. Fear of radical Islam (a completely different kettle of fish than Muslim faith), however, is entirely rational given the fact that it is Europe’s #1 security threat and has caused immense suffering throughout the world. It’s not even as though the targets are politically justifiable – just sadistic, e.g. the Manchester Arena bombing.

I’ve seen posters on MN expressing outrage about Israeli soldiers filming themselves dancing around with Gazan women’s underwear, but no outrage whatsoever about the sadistic rapes, tortures and mutilations of living Israeli women’s bodies. After the pager explosions, which could not have been more specifically targeted, there were whole threads finding a way to feel sorry for the victims and attack Israel for underhand tactics.

What concerns me about this “looking/pointing the other way” is that the UK is teetering dangerously on the brink of actively embracing the doctrines of radical Islam – marching to Hamas’s tune in London streets the weekend after 7/10, cheering death chants to the IDF at Glastonbury, prostrating themselves in support of a proscribed terrorist group whose co-founder spoke in praise of Hamas within 24 hours of the attacks of Israel.

Here in the UK (with some justification, obviously), the England flag is reviled as racist; but the Palestinian flag is proudly displayed as a badge of honour despite its problematic connotations for the tiny Jewish community of this country. It is really hard for me not to be concerned that a new form of fascism is insidiously gaining traction here, one that does not even bother to disguise its driving purpose. Yet people cannot see this happening right under their noses because they have some warped view of it as somehow more “brown-skinned” than Israel (I stress that these are their words, not mine, BTW!) whereas Israel is more “colonial” (US funding etc, ignoring the obscene wealth of other players like Qatar).

Yes we have engaged in ‘holy wars’ in the context that this phrase means and obligatory war required by God. They’re called milhemet mitzvah.

Many Jewish scholars have also named the current war between Israel and Palestine as a modern milhemet mitzvah due to the expressed beliefs of the ultra-nationalist parties and ministers in Israel justifying the occupation, displacement and annexing of the Palestinian lands as their right as given by God.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/holy-war-a-jewish-problem-too/

As your article says 'After the Mishnah, Jewish holy war ideas lay virtually dormant for most of our exilic existence, though they were discussed briefly by certain medieval thinkers and appear in some of our apocalyptic and messianic writings.' He's arguing the idea is being revived recently among settlers etc.

Yes, as I said earlier there are plenty of people who feel the need to comment on the conflict with little understanding of it, or the history (on both sides of the debate). I agree that the social contagion element of this is frustrating as SM is not going to be enough to grasp the complexities yet everyone is ready to join in. And I don’t say this in a ‘you need to be smart to get what’s going on’ I just mean you have to take time reading into the history.

I think we do agree on some points here but, as I said before, I think there’s more to it than religion.

And re your second post - I don’t expect the families and friends of hostages to be rational and calm right now. I don’t expect the collective trauma to have no impact on Israel’s citizens and their opinions on Palestinians or their feelings of safety. I do, however, think soldiers have to be a certain degree of calm if they have people’s lives in their hands. I don’t think anyone wants panicking soldiers running around with guns or bombs. And I think the same is true of politicians ordering those soldiers around. They need to think as rationally as possible as the choices they make affect many many people.

You must not understand the many religious references made by Netanyahu and other MKs then. From the very start he was quoting a prophecy of Isaiah and invoking the assault on Gaza as a fight against Amalek.

Yes - I agree that the standards are unfair and, as I’ve said before, I think there is definitely anti-semitism at play. I just don’t believe that is the only issue in this conflict. Personally, I think it also reflects badly that people are more understanding or apathetic of a Muslim country v Muslim country conflict or resigned to famine in Africa, even if more people are suffering but focusing on that takes us away from the theme of this thread!

Yes but Netayahu is very recent. I was talking about history.

I don't think I've ever said it was about religion. Antisemitism is directed at Jews regardless of their levels of observance, though Hasidim can be more vulnerable because of their very visible dress/hair.

Because SA are fighting a proxy war on behalf of the USA.
All wars the USA backs= good
All wars the USA doesn’t back = bad & veto, veto, veto any sanctions the UN wants to issue.

That is shocking and sadly there are people who happily hide behind their screen saying horrendous things about Jewish people. They may also say them to friends and family or worse shout them at any one they believe to be Jewish. It’s terribly sad and frightening. As I’ve said before, the flames of antisemitism are bound to be massively fanned by the conflict and those comments or, worst still any actions aimed at Jewish people are unacceptable.

I’m not sure what you mean in your second paragraph. Is the comment highlighting just how horrendous the 7/10 atrocities were?

I can understand your concerns re radicalisation in the UK but what I see contradicts that narrative (I’m not saying either is right or wrong, just inviting discussion). We look scarily on track to have our own right wing government in the next election that fans the flames of intolerance and hatred, especially toward minorities. Labour under Corbyn lost voters impart because of the antisemitism issues in the labour party. Brits are setting fire to asylum hotels and racist attacks against minorities are soaring. To me, it sounds like we are getting a lot less tolerant as a country and are more likely to be racist towards Muslims than signing up to Islam or being terrorist sympathisers.

Apologies - to clarify, I don’t think reducing it to antisemitism or hatred of Jewish people is accurate.