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Conflict in the Middle East

No military is more publicly condemned today than the Israel Defense Forces.

303 replies

ConscientiousObserver · 06/08/2025 21:36

Extremely informative article by Yoav Gallant, Former Israeli Defence Minister and John Spencer, Executive Director of the Urban Warfare Institute.

No military is more publicly condemned today than the Israel Defense Forces. Yet behind closed doors, few are more studied. Western generals and defense officials routinely seek Israeli briefings, request access to doctrine and tactics, and pursue cooperation on training and technology. These efforts continue even as their political counterparts issue statements of moral outrage and condemnation. The contradiction reflects more than a double standard. It reveals a deeper divide between political perception and military reality, between external messaging and internal understanding, between illusion and experience.

Since the war in Gaza began, Israel has hosted dozens of foreign delegations. Military officers and defense officials observe Israeli operations firsthand. They ask technical questions about targeting processes, coordination between air and ground forces, real-time intelligence integration, and how combat units distinguish between civilians and combatants under fire. Some return weeks later to formalize cooperation on areas ranging from tunnel warfare to hostage recovery to civilian harm mitigation. Meanwhile, many of their political counterparts deliver rehearsed remarks emphasizing restraint, proportionality, and civilian protection, often with little connection to the operational context or ground realities they were just briefed on.

This is not just political inconsistency. It is strategic dissonance. War is never clean. Urban warfare against a hybrid enemy embedded in civilian areas is among the most complex challenges modern democracies will face. Yet the public discussion is often dominated by expectations of precision and perfection that no military force can guarantee. In many capitals, political performance overrides professional understanding.

In Gaza, Hamas constructed more than 300 miles of fortified tunnels beneath civilian infrastructure. It operates from hospitals, schools, and mosques by design, not necessity. Early in the war, the IDF learned a simple rule: if you want to find a tunnel, look beneath a school. If you are searching for an enemy headquarters, start under a mosque. If you suspect an arms depot, check the basement of a hospital. This is not coincidence; it is a consistent, deliberate tactic. Hamas has blocked evacuations, placed command centers inside humanitarian zones, and taken hundreds of hostages. These are not side effects of war. They are deliberate features of a strategy built to paralyze democracies, provoke condemnation, and weaponize civilian suffering. The targeting of civilians is not incidental. It is essential to Hamas’s operational concept.

Many political leaders respond by invoking past conflicts. They reference battles in Mosul, Aleppo, Fallujah, or Raqqa, assuming these comparisons provide meaningful precedent. But most of these conflicts did not involve an adversary intentionally preventing civilians from leaving combat zones. Most did not involve hundreds of hostages dispersed across a dense urban battlefield. Most involved insurgencies, not foreign-backed terror armies. Many involved military forces that did not follow the same standards of precision and accountability expected of Israel. These differences matter. Failing to account for them leads to flawed analysis and unrealistic policy prescriptions.

These dynamics are not limited to Gaza. Across the region, similar tactics are emerging. In southern Syria, the Julani regime has carried out atrocities against the Druze population while embedded within civilian areas. These acts of cruelty follow the same playbook used by Hamas. Yet few international voices draw consistent lines between them. This silence reflects another gap: the unwillingness to apply standards evenly when the political costs differ. Condemnation is directed at those who can hear it. Those who operate beyond the reach of democratic norms often face no scrutiny at all.

While calls for humanitarian concern grow louder, few political leaders press for solutions that would actually reduce civilian harm. Egypt continues to keep its border with Gaza closed, despite being the sole neighboring country uninvolved in the conflict and capable of providing immediate relief to civilians seeking safety. Evacuation routes remain blocked. Temporary refuge for civilians is politically possible but diplomatically ignored. Not a single major European government or United Nations body has mounted sustained pressure on Cairo to open the Rafah crossing or to establish a displaced persons or humanitarian zone a few kilometers into the Sinai. Instead, criticism centers on Israel, the only actor currently conducting both combat and humanitarian operations in the same battlespace. The imbalance distorts both perception and policy.

This is not the first time democracies have confronted hard choices. The wars of the twentieth century were waged with heavy costs. Civilian casualties were tragically high. But the principle of civilian protection was strengthened over time, especially with the Geneva Conventions adopted after World War II. Those conventions remain the foundation of the modern laws of war. They prohibit intentional attacks on civilians and impose a duty to take feasible precautions to avoid civilian harm. But they do not demand perfection, nor do they outlaw war itself. When adversaries exploit civilians to provoke condemnation and delay operations, the responsibility lies with those who commit the violations—not those who attempt to respond within the law.

The numbers bear remembering. Two million civilians died in the Korean War, averaging over 50,000 per month. More than ten thousand were killed in the liberation of a single city, Mosul. Hundreds of thousands died during military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Cities were flattened in the campaign against ISIS. These are not historical footnotes. They are reminders of what war has always entailed, especially in dense urban environments. Today, only one military—the IDF—is expected to achieve battlefield success without error, without civilian harm, and without criticism, even as it faces enemies who deliberately try to make this impossible.

Despite this, militaries around the world continue to seek Israeli knowledge. Governments initiate formal cooperation agreements. Officers train in Israeli facilities. Procurement programs focus on Israeli defense technologies developed through experience in real combat conditions. These are not isolated interactions. They are serious, structured engagements based on the recognition that similar wars may lie ahead. European and NATO militaries understand that future threats may look more like Hamas than like conventional armies. They are preparing accordingly.
This is not a blanket condemnation of all political leaders. Many do understand what modern war demands and the reality Israel is confronting. Nor is the political-professional divide a one-way street. War is ultimately the pursuit of political objectives, and in a democracy, those objectives are set by political leaders based on the best advice of their military advisors. At the same time, senior military leaders must understand the domestic, international, and geopolitical factors that frame and constrain the use of force. Political leaders cannot speak about war without accounting for context, history, strategy, tactics, and operational reality. And military leaders cannot speak about war without understanding the political environment that defines it. The tension between political and professional perspectives is not a flaw. It is a feature of democratic governance. But it must be informed, mutual, and honest.

Unfortunately, that equilibrium is too often lost. Political leaders too often avoid difficult truths. Some present war as inherently unjust. Others suggest that all violence can be avoided with diplomacy or restraint. Few acknowledge that, in extreme cases, force may be both necessary and lawful. This avoidance does not strengthen democracy. It weakens it. It misleads citizens, erodes deterrence, and gives adversaries greater freedom of action.

In Israel, such illusions are not possible. Conflict is measured in meters. Homes sit a few hundred yards from hostile territory. Missiles arrive in seconds. Tunnels turn rear areas into front lines. Civilian buildings become military objectives by design. This is not theoretical. It is a daily reality.
On October 7, Hamas killed 1,200 Israelis, many through direct atrocities. Adjusted for population, that would be the equivalent of over 40,000 Americans or more than 8,000 Britons killed in a single day. International law permits self-defense, even in war. It also permits the use of force against military objectives. Proportionality accounts for the presence of civilians, even when they are unlawfully placed at risk by those who violate the laws of war. It requires that civilian harm not be excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage and that every feasible precaution be taken to minimize that harm. Israel has done both.
Democracies must regain strategic clarity. They cannot afford to treat war as a morality play while military officers prepare for reality. They must explain to their populations that war, when necessary, is not only legal but at times morally required. They must recognize that the expectations placed on allies today may become the burdens they bear tomorrow. The next war will not wait for consensus. It will demand readiness, resolve, and truth.

If democratic leaders continue to separate what they know privately from what they say publicly, the result will not be greater morality. It will be greater suffering and failure. Silence will not deter enemies. Illusion will not protect civilians. And condemnation, without context or consistency, will not produce peace.

The hard lessons of war must be faced, not avoided. Military professionals understand this. It is time for political leaders to do the same.
General Yoav Gallant, former Israeli Minister of Defense and decorated IDF commander, shares strategic insights on leadership, security, and geopolitics—drawing from nearly five decades at the forefront of Israel’s national defense.

John Spencer is Executive Director of the Urban Warfare Institute and co-author of Understanding Urban Warfare. A leading expert on urban warfare, he advised senior U.S. Army leaders through strategic roles from the Pentagon to West Point.

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99bottlesofkombucha · 09/08/2025 23:19

GladioliGreen · 08/08/2025 18:38

The IDF are supposed to know? They are the ones doing targeted attacks on them, are you saying that the IDF don't know who they are killing because that would be extremely concerning.

They know. Thats why the suicide rate in the Israeli army is up- they can’t see any other way out of it to get past this horror they are part of it.
if your own soldiers are increasingly committing suicide because it seems a better alternative to starving and blowing up children, then no criticism of this military is enough. Let’s say this all gets sorted out- imagine meeting an Israeli travelling in a few years and hanging out they said they’d been doing their national service on 2024/2025. Wouldn’t your food turn to sawdust in your mouth and you’d need to leave? It’s not every individual soldiers fault, but it would be hard to look at them much less keep hanging out or keep your appetite.

Twiglets1 · 10/08/2025 06:11

GladioliGreen · 09/08/2025 21:21

Just to note as well that you have said The only torture & sexual violence I’m aware of is what Hamas did to civilians on 7/10 & afterwards.

The gang rape that was filmed went straight over your head did it? You haven't read any of the whistleblower accounts or the the accounts of victims of Israeli torture?

It is very difficult to believe that you are posting in 'good faith' when you deny sexual violence and torture. There comes a point when you are wasting your time posting and pulling out links for someone who has seen that sexual violence exists towards Palestinians but still denies that it happens goes into the waste of time pile.

You haven’t provided any links to the IDF torturing local journalists or using sexual violence against them.

HellsBalls · 10/08/2025 08:46

Twiglets1 · 10/08/2025 06:11

You haven’t provided any links to the IDF torturing local journalists or using sexual violence against them.

Facts don’t matter, accusations do.
If you throw enough shit, some sticks.
Case in point, the Al-Ahli hospital rocket attack.
’IDF murder 700 at hospital’
Ended up being an Islamist Jihad rocket, and death toll was half or less, depending on where you look.

HellsBalls · 10/08/2025 11:02

@99bottlesofkombucha “imagine meeting an Israeli travelling in a few years and hanging out they said they’d been doing their national service on 2024/2025. Wouldn’t your food turn to sawdust in your mouth and you’d need to leave?”

Why? A lot of people would thank them for their service.

ConscientiousObserver · 10/08/2025 11:03

Twiglets1 · 10/08/2025 06:11

You haven’t provided any links to the IDF torturing local journalists or using sexual violence against them.

Just the same as the non existent video footage of the IDF sniping kids in the head that they were going on about on here for months.

In a place with the largest concentration of smart phones constantly on the look out and ready to film alleged ‘war crimes’ and there’s absolutely nothing but lies and blood libels and the the useful idiots who want to believe them.

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Twiglets1 · 10/08/2025 11:08

ConscientiousObserver · 10/08/2025 11:03

Just the same as the non existent video footage of the IDF sniping kids in the head that they were going on about on here for months.

In a place with the largest concentration of smart phones constantly on the look out and ready to film alleged ‘war crimes’ and there’s absolutely nothing but lies and blood libels and the the useful idiots who want to believe them.

They get very irritable when asked for evidence from a reputable source.

"I'm not your Google" is doublespeak for it's only posted on X.

ConscientiousObserver · 10/08/2025 11:09

HellsBalls · 10/08/2025 11:02

@99bottlesofkombucha “imagine meeting an Israeli travelling in a few years and hanging out they said they’d been doing their national service on 2024/2025. Wouldn’t your food turn to sawdust in your mouth and you’d need to leave?”

Why? A lot of people would thank them for their service.

Absolutely and also thank them for being the most moral army in the world in impossible circumstances, which will be proven once again when the dust settles.

You can just see how disingenuous this poster is.

Does he/she think no one should have fought against Hamas, that there should not have been a war at all? That the IDF should have refused to fight against what was probably the clearest act of war in modern history?

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frockandcrocs · 10/08/2025 11:31

ConscientiousObserver · 10/08/2025 11:09

Absolutely and also thank them for being the most moral army in the world in impossible circumstances, which will be proven once again when the dust settles.

You can just see how disingenuous this poster is.

Does he/she think no one should have fought against Hamas, that there should not have been a war at all? That the IDF should have refused to fight against what was probably the clearest act of war in modern history?

Where does this ‘most moral army in the world’ shit come from?! I keep seeing it. Delusional.

Kakeandkake · 10/08/2025 11:48

frockandcrocs · 10/08/2025 11:31

Where does this ‘most moral army in the world’ shit come from?! I keep seeing it. Delusional.

It really is delusional 🤣
I feel sorry for the people who have been brainwashed to think so.

Alittlefeedbackwouldbenice · 10/08/2025 12:04

Twiglets1 · 09/08/2025 17:25

Where is this article from? I am asking for sources to prove evidence of the IDF torturing journalists and using sexual violence against them.

The number of journalists is not in contention. Only if there is evidence of the above.

So you know that there are a substantial amount of journalists held without it charged, by Israel. We also know (through numerous reports by both individuals, NGOs and investigations) that Israel use torture and sexual violence against some prisoners.

Saying that there's no evidence of Israel torturing journalists, is nitpicking. If they aren't torturing journalists, then they are torturing children, or women, or doctors. It has to be someone... Which ones is it ok to torture and rape?

Kakeandkake · 10/08/2025 12:05

Thank them for their service? This is really delusional. Who thanks people for carrying out a genocide?

HellsBalls · 10/08/2025 12:24

Kakeandkake · 10/08/2025 12:05

Thank them for their service? This is really delusional. Who thanks people for carrying out a genocide?

There is no genocide though, is there?
Israel could have gone wild on October 8th and actually carpet bombed Gaza from top to bottom and killed a million or more Gazans in a week.
They didn’t. They still don’t indiscriminately kill civilians. That’s Hamas’s game.
Even now, they have given Hamas 2 months to get the fuck out. But Hamas use their people’s deaths as capital to degrade Israel’s position.

Twiglets1 · 10/08/2025 12:40

Alittlefeedbackwouldbenice · 10/08/2025 12:04

So you know that there are a substantial amount of journalists held without it charged, by Israel. We also know (through numerous reports by both individuals, NGOs and investigations) that Israel use torture and sexual violence against some prisoners.

Saying that there's no evidence of Israel torturing journalists, is nitpicking. If they aren't torturing journalists, then they are torturing children, or women, or doctors. It has to be someone... Which ones is it ok to torture and rape?

I was replying to a very specific accusation another poster made yesterday. Which was that the IDF use torture and sexual violence against local journalists.

It's not "nitpicking" to ask for evidence if someone makes a claim you believe to be unsubstantiated. If you've decided to join the discussion about that specific thing I was discussing with another poster, feel free to try to find evidence yourself from a reputable source. So far no one has but it's up to you if you want to look for it. Really that was the job of the person who made the claim and then defended the claim and expressed astonishment that I hadn't seen evidence.

SummerFeverVenice · 10/08/2025 13:00

ConscientiousObserver · 08/08/2025 21:03

There was evidence that men had been listed as women and children.

Palestinian ‘social media activists’ have long been told to name all terrorist deaths as ‘innocent civilians’.

On that note. I was not surprised to this SM activist outed as being part of a the PFLP, who are apparently working alongside Hamas. She has had a very large following and I remember lots on here taking about her and her bravery. She even got an award and a front cover of Forbes magazine! Bisan Owda -

https://x.com/EFischberger/status/1817013654715261234

And that other one who strangely enough managed to evacuate (although not many children could) to Qatar and has a done bit of globetrotting.

There was evidence that men had been listed as women and children.
Where is this evidence? Please don’t post a link to X

this SM activist [Bisan Owda] outed as being part of a the PFLP, who are apparently working alongside Hamas.
You have posted a link to veteran IDF member based in Israel that frequently posts incorrect information. His allegations against Bisan Owda were found to be baseless https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/palestinian-documentary-wins-emmy-despite-censorship-attempts/.

I can’t respond to the “other one” without a name

Alittlefeedbackwouldbenice · 10/08/2025 13:00

Twiglets1 · 10/08/2025 12:40

I was replying to a very specific accusation another poster made yesterday. Which was that the IDF use torture and sexual violence against local journalists.

It's not "nitpicking" to ask for evidence if someone makes a claim you believe to be unsubstantiated. If you've decided to join the discussion about that specific thing I was discussing with another poster, feel free to try to find evidence yourself from a reputable source. So far no one has but it's up to you if you want to look for it. Really that was the job of the person who made the claim and then defended the claim and expressed astonishment that I hadn't seen evidence.

Edited

Do you accept the systematic (or at least frequent) use of violence and sexual torture by the Israeli authorities on Palestinians held without charge?

ConscientiousObserver · 10/08/2025 13:09

SummerFeverVenice · 10/08/2025 13:00

There was evidence that men had been listed as women and children.
Where is this evidence? Please don’t post a link to X

this SM activist [Bisan Owda] outed as being part of a the PFLP, who are apparently working alongside Hamas.
You have posted a link to veteran IDF member based in Israel that frequently posts incorrect information. His allegations against Bisan Owda were found to be baseless https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/palestinian-documentary-wins-emmy-despite-censorship-attempts/.

I can’t respond to the “other one” without a name

Look it up yourself. It was in much of the MSM.

So that’s not Bisan in the video then? Is she just playing terrorist dress up?

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SummerFeverVenice · 10/08/2025 13:10

@ConscientiousObserver
So “experts on the ground” was referring to Yoav Galkant, but you say refers to one British guy named Andrew Fox, who has visited Israel 4x in 2024 on brief tours to the Oct 7 attack sites.

’On the ground’ means someone who has actually been into Gaza during the war.

It doesn’t refer to one British veteran going on holiday to Israel.

SummerFeverVenice · 10/08/2025 13:15

ConscientiousObserver · 10/08/2025 13:09

Look it up yourself. It was in much of the MSM.

So that’s not Bisan in the video then? Is she just playing terrorist dress up?

I have looked it up, the US Emmy Association had it investigated by CNN and NPR before going forward with the award. Al Jazeera’s fact checking arm also investigated it. The Shin Bet investigated it and all came back saying it was baseless and fake allegations.

SummerFeverVenice · 10/08/2025 13:19

DrPrunesqualer · 09/08/2025 11:16

I wouldn’t take much notice of Spencer
A lot of what he says has been debunked

His figures on civilian deaths in Gaza as an ‘understandable / normal ‘ level do not account for modern day warfare or urban warfare. Casualties according to Spagat for example far exceed these
His praise of Israeli use of tech to protect civilians has been cited as nonsense given that it very often doesn’t work or isn’t employed sufficiently. For example If you’re going to notify people an area is going to be bombed you don’t give them just 5 minutes to get out and you make sure everyone knows.

I could go on. But as Spencer’s ‘thoughts’ have already been widely debunked by many academics and authorities in this area it’s all out there for all to see.
If interested

Very true. In addition there were frequent days longs power, phone and internet outages in many parts of Gaza and yet the IDF has continuously assured us that everyone in Gaza would have a fully charged phone that could get a text and can keep themselves updated instantly on evacuation orders…

ConscientiousObserver · 10/08/2025 13:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ConscientiousObserver · 10/08/2025 13:21

SummerFeverVenice · 10/08/2025 13:15

I have looked it up, the US Emmy Association had it investigated by CNN and NPR before going forward with the award. Al Jazeera’s fact checking arm also investigated it. The Shin Bet investigated it and all came back saying it was baseless and fake allegations.

So, I repeat, is that not Bisan in the video then?

Its a really simple question.

She is clearly talking in one clip.

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sellotapechicken · 10/08/2025 13:25

SomeWomanSomewhere · 06/08/2025 21:44

Personally, I don't give much credence to the opinions of individuals personally subject to international arrest warrants on the grounds of ... checks notes ... war crimes and crimes against humanity.

First post nails it

SummerFeverVenice · 10/08/2025 13:26

But they allow thousands upon thousands of photos and videos to flood out of Gaza showing the ‘genocide’ and the ‘starvation’ and all the horrific injuries..

@ConscientiousObserver
Israel doesn’t have total control over the information going in or coming out of Gaza despite trying to.

Twiglets1 · 10/08/2025 13:32

I know there have been allegations of mistreatment & torture in Israeli detention @SummerFeverVenice but I also know this has been denied by the IDF and Israel Prison Service (IPS). Though again, this is a separate issue to the conversation you have joined that I was having with another poster specifically relating to journalists. The allegations of mistreatment were made by detainees accused of having links to Hamas.

From a BBC investigation in April 2025:

The BBC sent a lengthy right of reply letter to the IDF which laid out in detail the men's allegations and their identities.
In its statement, the IDF did not respond to any of the specific allegations, but said it "completely rejects accusations of systematic abuse of detainees".
It said some of the cases raised by the BBC would be "examined by the relevant authorities". It added that others "were brought without sufficient detail, without any detail regarding the identity of the detainees, making them impossible to examine".
It continued: "The IDF takes any… actions which contradict its values very seriously… Specific complaints about inappropriate behaviour by detention facility staff or insufficient conditions are forwarded for examination by the relevant authorities and are dealt with accordingly. In appropriate cases, disciplinary actions are taken against the staff members of the facility, and criminal investigations are opened."
The IPS said it was not aware of any of the claims of abuse described in our investigation, in its prisons. "[A]s far as we know, no such events have occurred under IPS responsibility," it added.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn7vje365rno

Graphic shows Hamad al-Dahdouh, Mohammad Abu Tawileh, and Abdul Karim Mushtaha, against a background of barbed wire and Sde Teiman detention centre gates

Gazan detainees tell BBC of torture by IDF and Israel Prison Service

Interviews with five men held in the months after the Hamas attacks reveal allegations of violence and abuse, adding to reports of misconduct by military and prison staff.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn7vje365rno

SummerFeverVenice · 10/08/2025 13:37

Twiglets1 · 09/08/2025 17:56

I just want to see evidence from a reputable source that has been known to be critical of both sides (like the BBC) rather than from a Iranian news and documentary network that is affiliated with Islamic Republic of Iran.

Sorry but I don't consider that a reputable source. If you're getting your news from Iranian TV it explains your perspective being very different from mine.

Would Haaretz and B’Tselem be reliable enough for you? One is the most reputable left wing Israeli newspaper, and other the most revered Israeli Human Rights Organisation.

Both get their info from visiting the prisons, talking to the prisoners, reviewing video clips and reading medical reports.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-05/ty-article/.premium/dozens-of-testimonies-from-palestinians-describe-israeli-jails-conditions-during-gaza-war/00000191-238f-d825-abd9-afaf1a3b0000

“Dozens of Palestinians who have been held in Israeli prisons and detention centers since the beginning of the war in Gaza describe experiences of torture, sexual abuse, violence, humiliation, starvation and denial of adequate medical treatment, according to a new report published on Monday by Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem.”

You can download the full report at reliefweb.int
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/welcome-hell-israeli-prison-system-network-torture-camps-enarhe