How is forced starvation allowed?

[Tinycatnoise]

The top story in the BBC right now is the starvation of Gazans by Israel. The images are horrifying and not dissimilar to seeing those images of concentration camps in Nazi Germany. I cried seeing those and am crying now. I am sure someone will claim antisemitism because of this statement, but anyone looking at these images of starving children would agree.

How is this still going on? I feel like we are watching a genocide take place that the world has turning a blind eye to. The daily shooting by Israel of people trying to get aid too is just barbaric. If nothing is being done to stop this, what is the next horror that will unfold in the world that people will just accept?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce9xkx7vnmxo

It’s a war yes
a very one sided war
fed up of people making out one side is as bad as the other - only one side is responsible for this starvation of civilians

Hamas initiated this current fight with Israel and set out to kill as many Israelis as they could - soldiers and civilians.

So no, they don't to be let off the hook just because they haven't been particularly successful in their aims.

Civilians being malnourished is another subject. The Israel government needs to take a lot of responsibility for that. But so too do Hamas for starting a war they couldn't win and stealing humanitarian aid to the extent that the Israel government wanted to find a way to block that income stream.

It’s not really he said/she said about whether journalists being killed by Israel or Hamas. Israel’s line is that the figures of dead journalists come from Hamas and that journalists are not targeted by Israel.

However the CPJ has been attempting to verify many of these deaths.

However, there is no doubt that Palestinian journalists face a difficult situation where they are both hampered in their work by Hamas and at risk of Israeli violence.

Old but still valid about CPJ’s work.
https://cpj.org/2024/05/why-impact-of-israel-gaza-war-has-become-harder-to-document/

I think it is He said/She said because we never know who to believe in these situations. One side says one thing, the other side another.

Israel says they don't target journalists particularly, Hamas say they do.

But many people don't believe Hamas was stealing all the food aid and it doesn't stack up either, there was no famine in Gaza prior to the Israelis halting food aid & many reports say that it didn't happen on the scale that the IDF have said.

Yes i think its fairly obvious that had 7/10 not happened, then the current situation wouldn't have occurred but it has but that doesn't make deliberately using starvation as a tool of war justified.

I think its rather telling that Trump, who has access to large amounts of intel, says there is starvation in Gaza and sees it as a IDF issue to resolve now, quite an about turn.

I think it’s true that Israel don’t target journalists. I also don’t believe they necessarily ‘target’ civilians. However the indiscriminate approach to bombing they have taken undoubtedly means a lot of civilians are killed as ‘the cost of war’ or misplaced and it’s easy to see how journalists would be killed by the IDF. As I’ve said before, I’m not even sure how they expect the hostages to be alive at this point.

Having international journalists in Gaza would mean that Israel wouldn’t be able to raze huge areas to the ground and would undoubtedly slow their ‘progress’ but it would be much better for the Palestinians if something made the Israeli government think before they acted.

And I think it is telling that Netanyahu is still adamant that there is “no starvation in Gaza”. To me that is a(nother) huge red flag that the Israeli government is not to be trusted when reporting on this conflict. With all the other evidence and reports, it is bizarre that he is still flat out denying there is an issue. Not to mention changing policy to allow for aid corridors.

I think if you just keep dropping bombs on civilian areas in the off chance you kill Hamas, then that is targeting civilians.

However, in all of this, we seem to have completely forgotten the hostages, they rarely get a mention on here.

Surely a ceasefire can get some/all released, food aid in?

This needs to be the priority.

Apologies for double posting but also in terms of he said/she said. I think it is a lot of sources saying one thing, and Israel/pro-israeli sources saying something else. When weighing up all the evidence, I find it easy to believe the Israeli government isn’t being entirely honest about what they are doing/hoping to do in Gaza. He said/she said suggest there’s just two voices disagreeing when actually the balance is way off equal.

All He said/She said implies is that there are 2 versions of the truth and we can’t know which one is true.

It doesn’t mean it’s literally one person saying a thing and another person disagreeing.

I think there are lots of sources out there on both sides about who is more to blame for things - Israel government/IDF or Hamas - and we tend to believe the ones that match our own opinion. It’s our own bias.

Yes we all want a ceasefire above everything else @Alexandra2001 (everyone posting in good faith). I thought that went without saying.

Yes but I’m saying that when the evidence on one side massively outweighs the other, it’s more likely that one is closer to the truth. Unless, of course, you are trying to stick to a certain narrative. Then, you will find all sorts of reasons to disregard decent evidence in favour of what you want/believe to be true.

Saying that, I actually don’t agree that everyone is out to find evidence of their own narrative. Plenty of people, myself included, are simply looking for the truth. Reviewing all the information/evidence and forming an opinion. Not nit picking evidence and sifting out anything that fails to support our viewpoint. Plenty of people on this thread alone have tried to use trustworthy sources to support the points they are making and not just stating opinion like it’s fact.

To be honest, I think the evidence ‘defending’ Israel is lacking and I have asked so many times for people who remain staunchly pro-Israel to provide sources for that side of the debate. I have had very very little response to this question which makes me think that lots of people are leaning on their preconceived ideas of Israel and Palestine (or worse, their preconceived ideas of Muslims) rather than looking at the current body of evidence and concluding that Israel’s actions are deeply problematic. To be clear, I am not accusing you of doing this or @Voxon (who I have spoken to a lot so want to single you out too!). I just think as much as antisemitism plays a role in this conflict , it’s also fair to assume that some people are more comfortable supporting or agreeing with a western democracy.

Yeah, understood.

My system is to seperate fact from opinion. Facts are usually fairly easy to nail down, but sometimes they are not yet available in which case I don't assume too much.

I listen to the opinions and judgment of others, measure it against the facts, motives, and basic common sense of what is logical and draw my judgment from there.

No one is saying that Hamas were stealing ALL the food aid. They were stealing enough that it was seen as a big problem by the Israel government though.

I agree with Trump that there is starvation in Gaza. Not just up to the IDF to resolve though. Thankfully aid is coming in from other countries now like Jordan, the UAE and Egypt. And of course America has already donated a lot and will continue to do so.

When you say it’s “not just up to the IDF to resolve” you seem to be forgetting that this is and has for a very long time been an occupied territory, under a blockade.

But it has a government that bears some responsibility also, for the way it has governed before 7 October, for 7 October, and its behaviour since.

@PinkBobby honestly I am looking for the truth too which is why I can say that the Israel government have done things very wrong too, and so have individual soldiers within the IDF.

Respectfully, I don't think you're quite as balanced as you think you are. I think we all have unconscious bias due to things like our upbringing, religion (or being an atheist like me), politics and lots of other things. It's better to acknowledge that than to imagine you are immune to it. This is just my opinion.

Also said with respect because you a polite person to engage with which I appreciate, but you "nit pick" evidence too and appear to favour evidence that fits your opinions on the war.

Both "sides" sometimes present opinion as fact - this is not something confined to the pro Israel posters. Where we see this it's fair to pick people up on it (nit picking if you like) - but I only see you & other pro Palestinian posters doing that to the pro Israel people, never to those that are anti Israel when they present opinion as facts.

A government that has no control over the flow of goods or people because they are occupied?

Exactly - and thankfully other countries are helping to provide and distribute humanitarian aid in Gaza rather than sitting around arguing about who caused it.

Of course they had considerable control before the war (somehow the tax revenue kept flowing, as did those military compnents, rocket launchers, and building supplies to build tunnels). What is stopping them putting down their arms and participating in humanitarian relief?

You cause an effect stops abruptly

Why is Hamas unable to import aid even if it wanted to? Because it's under military blockade

Why is it under military blockade? Because it's engaged in a decades long campaign of annihilation against it's neighbouring state.

Why can't the Gaza government at least deliver the aid? Because the Gaza government is a terrorist organisation that doesn't want to look after its civilians and have openly said its the UNs responsibility.

So why doesn't the UN deliver it?
They refuse to largely, because they say it's too dangerous

Why is it too dangerous?
They say armed actors attack convoys.

Why don't Israel help by providing security for the UN?
They've offered to, the UN refused to accept.

So within these parameters how can food get reliably to Gazan civilians?
A cease-fire or end to the war

And Hamas will not surrender, or give back the hostages.

I agree - I think we all have unconscious bias, of course, and we are all responsible for being aware of that when we have any discussion or debate. In that sense, we are all ‘equally’ bias. But like I said before, I think the people who are most troubling are the ones who argue without sources whilst ignoring or purposefully dismissing a lot of evidence. I don’t think people who reviewed the current evidence and find Israel have acted inappropriately/terribly cannot be automatically accused of bias because they have a wealth of evidence supporting their view.

And in terms of nit picking, I have used evidence to support various points I make. I feel like it’s unfair to label that nit picking. To me that’s just good debating etiquette. If someone would like to refute what I’ve said with other evidence, I am very open to it. In fact, I keep asking people to do exactly this and get nowhere! I favour evidence that comes from trustworthy sources. There has been plenty of food for thought in terms of what a trustworthy source may be in this conflict but I still think sources like the U.N. or NGOS or doctors who have worked in the area are more reliable that either Hamas or Israel. I would think this about any conflict as obviously both sides of a conflict (especially in modern times) will use propaganda to advance their cause.

I don’t particularly like debating to get personal because it takes away from the issue at hand. I appreciate everyone who is trying to keep this debate evidence based and shows willingness to listen to other perspectives.

Err?
The Israeli Govt stopped all Aid into Gaza, for several months....stop trying to rewrite history!
We all know what Netanyahu and the IDF did.

& aid flights, in the past and possibly now, have killed people unfortunate to be under a 1 ton palate of aid, some in tents, others have drowned trying to get aid drifted out to sea

Everything you’ve said here is so wilfully deluded I don’t even know where to start. And this thread is now pages deep full of wilful delusion. You’ve absorbed every inch of the Hasbara playbook really well though. It’s just a shame everyone is now starting to see through it.

Good I'm glad we agree that we all have unconscious bias.

Re "the people who argue without sources" - I'm not sure who you are referring to (personally I do tend to provide sources unless I am just giving my opinion on something) - but I can't agree or disagree with your observation about specific posters without knowing what/who you are referring to.

Speaking very generally, yes some do argue without sources and also present opinion as fact - they need to be asked at the time to give the source. If they don't - well, that is their right as this is MN not a court of Law. And people on both sides of the debate do this. To me, it seems that more people on the pro Palestinian side of the debate make statements without sources and present opinion as fact (but that could be my bias).

I'm not saying you are someone who nit picks more than anyone else, just that you are not immune to to. As an example, I think you were nit picking a bit over the meaning of He said/she said. It was very clearly used in this context as 2 sides with opposing views where we can't know the truth.

Also, regarding "reputable sources" well - opinions, differ! You see the UN as a reputable source - I no longer do, but I would have done once as they sound reputable don't they? Certainly they are more reputable than Hamas. Whether they are more reputable than IDF accounts of Hamas stealing aid - no, I don't think they are. But individual soldiers in the IDF have been caught lying too. So in the end, it's hard to know who to believe and we each have to make our own decisions on who is more likely to be telling the truth in different situations.