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Conflict in the Middle East

Hamas nearly gone?

159 replies

mids2019 · 06/07/2025 18:10

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gk79xlzwjo

This is important. Hamas are nearly defeated and so is it in Israel's interests to finish the job? It will be interesting to see if Hamas actually have authority when it comes to negotiations or whether they are a busted flush outrageously demanding concessions when they are defeated.

It seems Palestinian society is descending into a barbaric chaos and I don't how these armed gangs will be represented in future Gazan governance unless it is broken up into clan fiefdoms?

Displaced Palestinian children play inside a destroyed police car in a temporary camp within the site of the Arafat Police Academy, in the destroyed police camp affiliated with Hamas, in Gaza City (10 April 2025)

Hamas security officer says group has lost control over most of Gaza /OR/ Hamas security officer says clans filling void as group loses control of Gaza

The officer says Israeli strikes have devastated the group's leadership and structure, and that armed clans are filling the void.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gk79xlzwjo

OP posts:
Anonimummy · 08/07/2025 08:21

SharonEllis · 08/07/2025 07:33

Excellent post.

I concur.

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 08/07/2025 09:04

ForgesOfEmpires · 08/07/2025 02:00

This is just not true though. The vast majority of people who are oppressed one way or another, in poverty or living with restricted rights do not blow up school buses. I understand you mean well, but this is the racism of low expectations.

It also denies the point. Hamas didn't invade Israel to get rights for Palestinians. In actual fact, Hamas control the vast majority of the "rights" Palestinians have and they denied their population:

freedom of movement (they charged extortionate fees for exit visas)
freedom of press
freedom to expression
freedom from torture
right to a fair trial
right to equality under law regardless of religion, sexual orientation or gender
freedom from arbitrary detention
political participation in elections
adequate health, food, housing

Israel was not denying those things. Hamas was. So their invasion on 7 October wasn't to gain freedom from oppression. It was to kill Jews and annihilate their country so they could turn it into a slightly bigger terrorist dictatorship!

Palestinians would have been much better served by stopping the killing and violence, stopping vowing to annihilate Israel and building peace than they would be trying to indiscriminately kill Israelis which is what led to the blockade to begin with.

It is simply nothing like the Ireland situation and it's not a hard luck story, but more a case of making choices. Plenty of people have been displaced, myself included. It isn't a given that you will decide to kidnap people, and it certainly isn't natural.

Plenty of people have been displaced, myself included. It isn't a given that you will decide to kidnap people, and it certainly isn't natural.

No it isn't natural, and as a result the majority of people in the world who have experienced oppression and trauma are not terrorists and the majority of Palestinians aren't terrorists or have kidnapped people. I do think though you are showing a lack of understanding about the psychology of trauma and the reasons why people who have experienced similar events or conditions behave or react differently to them. It's not a justification for something but an explanation for it and if we better understand it we are better equipped to deal with the root causes of it and prevent it. It mainly comes down to protective factors but of course some people are just pure evil

not a hard luck story
How patronising.

ForgesOfEmpires · 08/07/2025 09:36

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 08/07/2025 09:04

Plenty of people have been displaced, myself included. It isn't a given that you will decide to kidnap people, and it certainly isn't natural.

No it isn't natural, and as a result the majority of people in the world who have experienced oppression and trauma are not terrorists and the majority of Palestinians aren't terrorists or have kidnapped people. I do think though you are showing a lack of understanding about the psychology of trauma and the reasons why people who have experienced similar events or conditions behave or react differently to them. It's not a justification for something but an explanation for it and if we better understand it we are better equipped to deal with the root causes of it and prevent it. It mainly comes down to protective factors but of course some people are just pure evil

not a hard luck story
How patronising.

I'm an Arab and a refugee. I've seen middle eastern terrorism upfront as well as brutal opression and torture. Up close and personal. I know what trauma is, and I've never felt the slightest inclination to harm anyone, much less kidnap or kill them.

You are possessed of the typical western attitude to these things, which while well-meaning is also deeply misguided.

This behavior isn't a reaction to trauma. You will not find Ukraine citizens reacting to their trauma in such ways.

In my culture many things are normalised: Jew hatred, violence and opression. Our world doesn't work like yours. It has nothing to do with evil or not evil. All people are capable of atrocity.

It comes down to culture: being told its okay to do this. Being told it's good to do this. And while you might say not all Palestinians are terrorists, I can assure you that the ones who are, are lauded and treated like heroes and celebrities.

Really think about that, because it might give you an understanding of the deep fractures in a society that build up to that, and opression simply doesn't factor in.

The evils conmitted by man through history largely had nothing to do with opression. Black people weren't opressing white people in 1700 - slave traders weren't driven to it by trauma. Something was actually deeply malignant in their ideology and they needed to be educated out of it.

Infantalising this is unhelpful. Palestinian people are no different to any other people, with the exception that they are trapped as pawns in an ideological war and their lives simply do not matter to the very people charged with their governance.

There is objectively no reason they couldn't have spent the last 20, 30, 40 years living really nice lives, aside from the fact that they were trapped in a largely manufactured battle.

We have a great deal of work to do. And anybody who thinks Palestinians are opresssed and traumatised (as I do) cannot solve that problem by simply blaming Israel and pretending the behaviour and existence of groups like Hamas is an Israeli issue. I assure you, it's not.

dairydebris · 08/07/2025 09:49

ForgesOfEmpires · 08/07/2025 09:36

I'm an Arab and a refugee. I've seen middle eastern terrorism upfront as well as brutal opression and torture. Up close and personal. I know what trauma is, and I've never felt the slightest inclination to harm anyone, much less kidnap or kill them.

You are possessed of the typical western attitude to these things, which while well-meaning is also deeply misguided.

This behavior isn't a reaction to trauma. You will not find Ukraine citizens reacting to their trauma in such ways.

In my culture many things are normalised: Jew hatred, violence and opression. Our world doesn't work like yours. It has nothing to do with evil or not evil. All people are capable of atrocity.

It comes down to culture: being told its okay to do this. Being told it's good to do this. And while you might say not all Palestinians are terrorists, I can assure you that the ones who are, are lauded and treated like heroes and celebrities.

Really think about that, because it might give you an understanding of the deep fractures in a society that build up to that, and opression simply doesn't factor in.

The evils conmitted by man through history largely had nothing to do with opression. Black people weren't opressing white people in 1700 - slave traders weren't driven to it by trauma. Something was actually deeply malignant in their ideology and they needed to be educated out of it.

Infantalising this is unhelpful. Palestinian people are no different to any other people, with the exception that they are trapped as pawns in an ideological war and their lives simply do not matter to the very people charged with their governance.

There is objectively no reason they couldn't have spent the last 20, 30, 40 years living really nice lives, aside from the fact that they were trapped in a largely manufactured battle.

We have a great deal of work to do. And anybody who thinks Palestinians are opresssed and traumatised (as I do) cannot solve that problem by simply blaming Israel and pretending the behaviour and existence of groups like Hamas is an Israeli issue. I assure you, it's not.

This post should be pinned at the top of the thread.

1dayatatime · 08/07/2025 10:10

@ForgesOfEmpires

An excellent very well written and logical post.

I wish I could write as well as you!

Anonimummy · 08/07/2025 10:17

ForgesOfEmpires · 08/07/2025 09:36

I'm an Arab and a refugee. I've seen middle eastern terrorism upfront as well as brutal opression and torture. Up close and personal. I know what trauma is, and I've never felt the slightest inclination to harm anyone, much less kidnap or kill them.

You are possessed of the typical western attitude to these things, which while well-meaning is also deeply misguided.

This behavior isn't a reaction to trauma. You will not find Ukraine citizens reacting to their trauma in such ways.

In my culture many things are normalised: Jew hatred, violence and opression. Our world doesn't work like yours. It has nothing to do with evil or not evil. All people are capable of atrocity.

It comes down to culture: being told its okay to do this. Being told it's good to do this. And while you might say not all Palestinians are terrorists, I can assure you that the ones who are, are lauded and treated like heroes and celebrities.

Really think about that, because it might give you an understanding of the deep fractures in a society that build up to that, and opression simply doesn't factor in.

The evils conmitted by man through history largely had nothing to do with opression. Black people weren't opressing white people in 1700 - slave traders weren't driven to it by trauma. Something was actually deeply malignant in their ideology and they needed to be educated out of it.

Infantalising this is unhelpful. Palestinian people are no different to any other people, with the exception that they are trapped as pawns in an ideological war and their lives simply do not matter to the very people charged with their governance.

There is objectively no reason they couldn't have spent the last 20, 30, 40 years living really nice lives, aside from the fact that they were trapped in a largely manufactured battle.

We have a great deal of work to do. And anybody who thinks Palestinians are opresssed and traumatised (as I do) cannot solve that problem by simply blaming Israel and pretending the behaviour and existence of groups like Hamas is an Israeli issue. I assure you, it's not.

Another excellent post.

I would also add that Jewish people weren’t oppressing the Nazis or any of the other countries around the world which persecuted, exterminated and exiled them for centuries.

I think it is disgustingly dumb and inherently evil to try to use their own history against them as victim blaming gaslighting in a war started by a real genocide and ethnic cleansing against them as many do on this board.

SharonEllis · 08/07/2025 10:19

Anonimummy · 08/07/2025 10:17

Another excellent post.

I would also add that Jewish people weren’t oppressing the Nazis or any of the other countries around the world which persecuted, exterminated and exiled them for centuries.

I think it is disgustingly dumb and inherently evil to try to use their own history against them as victim blaming gaslighting in a war started by a real genocide and ethnic cleansing against them as many do on this board.

This is also such an important point that is so often completely forgotten.

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 08/07/2025 10:32

ForgesOfEmpires · 08/07/2025 09:36

I'm an Arab and a refugee. I've seen middle eastern terrorism upfront as well as brutal opression and torture. Up close and personal. I know what trauma is, and I've never felt the slightest inclination to harm anyone, much less kidnap or kill them.

You are possessed of the typical western attitude to these things, which while well-meaning is also deeply misguided.

This behavior isn't a reaction to trauma. You will not find Ukraine citizens reacting to their trauma in such ways.

In my culture many things are normalised: Jew hatred, violence and opression. Our world doesn't work like yours. It has nothing to do with evil or not evil. All people are capable of atrocity.

It comes down to culture: being told its okay to do this. Being told it's good to do this. And while you might say not all Palestinians are terrorists, I can assure you that the ones who are, are lauded and treated like heroes and celebrities.

Really think about that, because it might give you an understanding of the deep fractures in a society that build up to that, and opression simply doesn't factor in.

The evils conmitted by man through history largely had nothing to do with opression. Black people weren't opressing white people in 1700 - slave traders weren't driven to it by trauma. Something was actually deeply malignant in their ideology and they needed to be educated out of it.

Infantalising this is unhelpful. Palestinian people are no different to any other people, with the exception that they are trapped as pawns in an ideological war and their lives simply do not matter to the very people charged with their governance.

There is objectively no reason they couldn't have spent the last 20, 30, 40 years living really nice lives, aside from the fact that they were trapped in a largely manufactured battle.

We have a great deal of work to do. And anybody who thinks Palestinians are opresssed and traumatised (as I do) cannot solve that problem by simply blaming Israel and pretending the behaviour and existence of groups like Hamas is an Israeli issue. I assure you, it's not.

I know what trauma is, and I've never felt the slightest inclination to harm anyone, much less kidnap or kill them.
And neither have the majority of people that's my point

There is objectively no reason they couldn't have spent the last 20, 30, 40 years living really nice lives, aside from the fact that they were trapped in a largely manufactured battle.
They were also part of an illegal occupation which limited their prospects and opportunities ignoring these facts is disingenuous and presents negative connotations about Palestinians people. I personally think they are more resilient than most.

And anybody who thinks Palestinians are opresssed and traumatised (as I do) cannot solve that problem by simply blaming Israel and pretending the behaviour and existence of groups like Hamas is an Israeli issue. I assure you, it's not.
If that's what you think I've suggested you are wrong. We are all a product of our environment. I have studied Bronfenbrenner's Ecological Systems Theory and would agree with it.

Tiredofwhataboutery · 08/07/2025 10:42

REDB99 · 06/07/2025 19:48

I cannot stand Hamas and would like them gone completely, they have horribly abused the people of Gaza. Israel’s objective is to obliterate them but at the cost of thousands of civilians lives. Hamas make money (amongst other ways) by stealing aid trucks and selling the food at inflated prices to civilians. They have used Gazan’s as human shields for far too long.
But what replaces them? Something that will no doubt inflict more misery on the people who live there.

I think invariably in a power vacuum something equally awful fills it. Lots of angry/desperate men with lots of guns and you end up in a scenario where might= right to rule. I think for gazans life isn’t about to get easier regardless.

dairydebris · 08/07/2025 10:52

1dayatatime · 08/07/2025 10:10

@ForgesOfEmpires

An excellent very well written and logical post.

I wish I could write as well as you!

Me too.

ForgesOfEmpires · 08/07/2025 11:15

@ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend well, I haven't studied Brockenhocken-whatever-you-call-it theories, but I am a little frustrated sometimes by the international perspective because it perpetuates the instability of the region and IMO leads to an endless loop of suffering. If people want to help, blaming Israel isn’t going to do that. If it was erased tomorrow, it would not solve any problems.

The west is stuck in the sense that whilst it is not perfect, it's ideas on human rights are inherently progress for the human race, yet they persist in pussyfooting around so much with political correctness that often they betray the victims. Where are we on helping the women of Afghanistan. I weep for them.

I am even more dismayed at seeing support, even in the form of justification, for terrorism and violence in the west right now. I suppose this is easy to do when you sit from the comfort and safety of your living room in Kent, but in the real world for these people there are victims on all sides. That is not aimed at you specifically, but wow, seeing people romanticise these groups as "resistance" is quite breathtaking!

IMO westerners need to put aside their political correctness and look at the facts. You can begin to understand what "free Palestine" really should mean once you are able to get an understanding of why groups like some Palestinians respond to hardship with terrorism and murder, while others - like Ukrainians or oppressed Christians - generally do not.

It comes down to a combination of ideology, culture, leadership, foreign influence, and historical narrative. Breaking that down…

Radicalised Palestinian factions (especially Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and parts of Fatah) operate within a religious-nationalist ideology that glorifies violent "resistance", including suicide bombings and murdering civilians.

I can’t stress enough that they literally glorify murdering innocent people as if it’s a good thing. Martyrdom is institutionalised: school textbooks, songs, kids' TV shows, and sermons glorify violence from a young age.

The basis on which this is is achieved is predominantly religious but can only be done within the frame of a highly oppressed society where people cannot speak, read, think or say what they like.

Terrorists lie and manipulate their faith to fit political and ideological agendas. They frame violence as divine duty, not just political strategy, and they tell these people that killing civilians is rewarded in the afterlife. They target vulnerable minds with false promises of paradise and false ideas of right and wrong.

In actuality, Islamic scripture forbids murder and suicide. Suicide is a major sin, and there's no martyrdom attached to it in mainstream Islam.

To put that into an analogy that a Western person might easily understand, there was a time the Christian Church engaged in similar exploitation of religion to justify horrific violence and because people were told this was what God wanted, they were very easy to persuade to go and horrible murder, enslave or torture people. They were, as I recall, persuaded en masse that burning women for the imaginary crime of being a witch was perfectly normal.

Nowadays, in other cultures such as Christian, Ukrainian nationalist, or democratic resistance ideologies, that there is no eternal rewards for killing civilians and in fact doing those things is horrifically wrong – and that’s the predominant difference.

I am not a psychologist, but my life experience is that people become vulnerable to any sort of extremism when they feel desperate or lacking something. Many Muslim-majority countries are corrupt and quite brutal. There's no freedom, no trust in government, and no pathway to dignity through education or hard work in the places where extremism is most rife.

So when someone offers a pathway to glory it becomes more appealing. Of course it does.

So of course, you see a lot less radicalisation in wealthy and socially coherent Muslim countries like Dubai than you do in war-torn and deprived places like Gaza. So you have part of a point, but you are missing the bigger picture.

But that is only part of the story. As I said, many, many, many oppressed people would simply balk at the idea of suicide or murder – no matter how bad they felt their life was and the root of the issue is founded in the glorification of violence, murder and martyrdom.

They might fall into drugs, or depression or even crime - but it's highly unlikely they will bomb anyone. So there is a lot more going on that oppression.

Beyond religion being exploited, political culture, particularly in Gaza and parts of the West Bank, often encourages a world view where revenge (even horribly violent revenge targeted at totally innocent people) is noble. You see that in things like commonplace honour killings, or other extreme acts which are not culturally present everywhere.

Other oppressed peoples (like Ukrainians or Egyptian Copts) may suffer just as much - or more - but don’t raise their children to believe that stabbing civilians is glory. That is a very unique thing to my homelands!

In the aftermath of the Ukraine war you won’t see Ukrainian people – no matter how poor or oppressed - no matter how many members of their family are dead – blowing up Russian school buses. But in places such as Gaza, the culture of vengeance is celebrated - streets, schools, and stadiums are named after terrorists. It is lauded as a good thing to be.

We have seen so much in the west these last couple of years that casts Hamas or other such groups as revolutionary heroes of some kind. I can't really compute it, but certainly we have issues with profound ignorance.

Authoritarian leadership does not look after it's people or fight for their freedom. It seeks to deprive them of freedom and it uses it’s civilians as weapons.

In most countries, the main role of the government is to protect it’s civilians, but Gaza has none of that.

They don’t really do any governing or caring for their people – the UN and international community do that. Hamas and others intentionally create civilian suffering by using human shields, refusing ceasefires that could save lives, launching rockets from areas that should be sacrosanct under international law and encouraging them to both die and kill. They do that because they need suffering to sustain their rule - it keeps donor money flowing and recruits angry young men.

So here we are stuck in a loop where Palestinian terrorism is funded, trained, and encouraged by Iran, Qatar, and (historically) Syria and they use Palestinian people’s blood and suffering as a way to ideologically attack Israel to fulfil their ideological goal of Muslim domination. They use straplines like "free Palestine" but Iran is funding this. They do not have the slightest interest in freeing anyone!

They are clear on their goals: annihilation of Israel, D**h to Jews and America, and establishing an Islamic state with Iran's clerics as the head of it.

The UN and NGOs rarely hold Palestinian groups or their funders accountable. Instead they are often staffed by anti west activists and silly teenage socialists who think it's all fun and games to bring the man down. International sympathy often increases after terror attacks, as long as Palestinians suffer in the process. This perverse reward structure actually encourages violence. That in itself is so massively disturbing!

And beyond all this, what makes this specific "resistance" movement so inherently violent is it's goals. Unlike Rosa Parks who just wanted to sit on a bus and mind her own business, the goal of Hamas and other groups is erasing another country – invading a sovereign country and taking it.

And while some might think that is righteous, it cannot be done peacefully! What they are inherently doing is trying to conquer another country, and likely kill many of if not all it's citizens, so the idea that they can "peacefully" do this is outright ridiculous.

Israel will, like any other state, defend it’s existence. So when you compare this with somewhere like Ukraine, that only wants it’s territory to not be taken over by Russia or Coptic Christians who only want to live in peace you can see the basic difference in goals. If your end goal is the annihilation of another people, terrorism and violence becomes your main tool inherently.

In most places, life is sacred, but in Palestinian militant culture dying for the cause is more outwardly praised more than building a better life. That makes me personally extremely sad. When you watch the videos of the kids suferring and no question they are suffering, just remember that their leaders and possibly a notable chunk of their own population - would prefer the child was dead than to see it make peace with Israel.

This is why they dig tunnels, not infrastructure. Why they train child soldiers, not doctors. Why billions in aid vanish while kids dig rubble with bare hands. This is a fundamental ideological issue that completely prevents people from the basic pathway forward to peace and flourishing as they genuinely believe them and their kids dying horribly and/ or killing innocent people is preferable to just letting Israelis live next door.

The kids don't stand a chance because the whole thing has taken on the characteristics of a cult. Their pawns stuck inside this, and they're paying with their lives for other people's political goals: whether it's antisemites who hate Jews, or radical western socialists who want to bring down the west, or extremist Muslim clerics in Iran who want world domination. Absolutely none of those people care about Palestinian children, although all are willing to weaponize them.

I am so dismayed and angry at the UN, at Amnesty, at the BBC, at everyone playing a role in this when the only way to save Palestinian children is to teach them killing is wrong, allowing them to learn true history (not the false version they have) and encouraging them to build beautiful lives.

The world is honestly full of oppressed people. The Tibetans lost their homeland to Chinese invasion in 1950 and there has been an ongoing cultural genocide: Tibetan language, religion (Buddhism), and political identity have been brutally suppressed. But the Dalai Lama preaches nonviolence, and despite mass suffering, Tibetans haven’t formed terror cells or suicide bombing cults.

Palestine is a conduit for every rage of many people around the world. The minute they all actually start caring about Palestinians is the day we will begin putting in place tangible help that stops the cycle of violence. Then maybe we can stop feeling western guilt and instead use western privilege to materially help people around the world who remain in horrendous circumstances.

1dayatatime · 08/07/2025 11:28

@ForgesOfEmpires

Another great post, this time showing how to actually help ordinary Palestinians rather than use their suffering for pre existing motives / agendas.

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 08/07/2025 11:37

1dayatatime · 08/07/2025 11:28

@ForgesOfEmpires

Another great post, this time showing how to actually help ordinary Palestinians rather than use their suffering for pre existing motives / agendas.

If you think making negative generalisations about a whole group of people and othering them is to be applauded knock yourself out. I am also stumped that this poster only seems to see terrorists as Muslim.

I can see exactly what this poster is doing.

ForgesOfEmpires · 08/07/2025 12:10

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 08/07/2025 11:37

If you think making negative generalisations about a whole group of people and othering them is to be applauded knock yourself out. I am also stumped that this poster only seems to see terrorists as Muslim.

I can see exactly what this poster is doing.

This is a pattern I see constantly - and frankly, it's exhausting.

I was born into a Muslim family. Accusing me of being a racist or bigot against my own ethnic and religious background is at best lazy isn't it?

Your response is exactly the kind of thinking that keeps the West trapped in a cycle of siding with the worst actors on earth. You ignore firsthand experience from people who’ve lived under these systems - people who understand them deeply, and in many cases, escaped them - and instead reduce the discussion to “bigotry” this absolving those responsible and never solving the problem.

Let’s be clear.

I didn’t make sweeping generalisations about a people. I described, factually, the political, educational, and social structure in Gaza and explained how it contributes to radicalisation and terrorism.
.
I never said only Muslims commit terrorism, you have invented that. I explained, with context, why some oppressed populations react with violent extremism while others - facing equal or worse conditions - do not.

I am quite uncomfortable with your paternalistic, defeatist view of Arabs as helpless and incapable of accountability.

But let me assure you: we are not incapable of knowing that stabbing civilians is wrong. Most of us do know that.

This kind of silly game enables the very forces destroying our societies.

BelleHathor · 08/07/2025 12:31

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 08/07/2025 11:37

If you think making negative generalisations about a whole group of people and othering them is to be applauded knock yourself out. I am also stumped that this poster only seems to see terrorists as Muslim.

I can see exactly what this poster is doing.

And having the cheek to invoke Rosa Parks name. No one who understands Black Liberation would even dare.

Theirin lies the problem, colonial talking points expressed as "facts".

Twiglets1 · 08/07/2025 13:00

BelleHathor · 08/07/2025 12:31

And having the cheek to invoke Rosa Parks name. No one who understands Black Liberation would even dare.

Theirin lies the problem, colonial talking points expressed as "facts".

There’s no reason anyone shouldn’t mention Rosa Parks name. As long as they aren’t saying anything disrespectful about her.

inamarina · 08/07/2025 13:06

BelleHathor · 08/07/2025 12:31

And having the cheek to invoke Rosa Parks name. No one who understands Black Liberation would even dare.

Theirin lies the problem, colonial talking points expressed as "facts".

What’s the issue with mentioning Rosa Parks‘ name?
Way to shut down a perfectly reasonable poster offering a valuable perspective based on first hand experience and background knowledge.
I for one find @ForgesOfEmpires posts very insightful.

Twiglets1 · 08/07/2025 13:10

inamarina · 08/07/2025 13:06

What’s the issue with mentioning Rosa Parks‘ name?
Way to shut down a perfectly reasonable poster offering a valuable perspective based on first hand experience and background knowledge.
I for one find @ForgesOfEmpires posts very insightful.

Rosa Parks is studied in the GCSE curriculum in English secondary schools … an inspirational woman we don’t need to be told it’s a cheek to invoke.

ForgesOfEmpires · 08/07/2025 13:29

BelleHathor · 08/07/2025 12:31

And having the cheek to invoke Rosa Parks name. No one who understands Black Liberation would even dare.

Theirin lies the problem, colonial talking points expressed as "facts".

Oh my gawd.

Colonialism? We had lots of it: Roman, British, French, Ottoman - and lots more - and it doesn't look like a tiny Jewish state struggling to survive among 22 Arab nations.

If you have persuaded yourself that Jews colonised Israel I probably can't help you. but as you are reading this, I will give it to you without sugar coating:

Rosa Parks sat down to claim her equal right to exist - Hamas is working toward the total removal of another people’s existence.

They really don't make any bones about that. They openly state their goal is total destruction of Israel and its replacement with an Islamic state. It’s written in their founding charter (1988), repeated in speeches, and reflected in their actions.

Before British rule, Jews in Palestine lived as dhimmi under Ottoman Islamic law which made them legally second-class citizens. They were forbidden from bearing arms, excluded from military or government, barred from testifying against Muslims in court, making legal redress nearly impossible. They were required to pay a special tax in order to not be harmed, dress codes marked their inferior status, and they were expected to show deference to Muslims in public, such as dismounting their horse if a Muslim passed by.

They had no political power, could not proselytise, and were vulnerable to mob violence or state neglect without any guarantee of protection. Their movement, property ownership, and housing options were restricted, and in some towns, they could not live outside designated quarters. In essence, Jews lived under religious subjugation, legal inequality, and systemic humiliation, tolerated only as long as they remained submissive and paid for protection.

The equality which Rosa Parks sought is not dissimilar to the equality Jews fought for in their own homelands.

And you know what? They were there first. Absolutely nobody disputes that.

And when they even dared ask for independence in their homeland, when it was even discussed, violence against them began across the middle east. They were already second-class citizens but the idea that they might seek their own national identity was not accepted.

My country expelled its Jews in the late 1940s through the 1950s and 1960s using a mix of intimidation, legal persecution, and forced exile. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, anti-Jewish riots broke out, businesses were looted, synagogues were burned, and Jews were arrested without cause.

The government passed laws stripping Jews of citizenship, freezing their assets, and banning them from key professions. Then Nasser's regime formally expelled thousands of Jews, branding them as "enemies of the state". Many were given only days to leave, forced to sign declarations “donating” their property to the state, and allowed to take only one suitcase and minimal cash. Think about that - these are people who had been part of our communities for more than 2000 years!

By the early 1970s 75,000 Jews had been reduced to almost none and that occurred in every Arab country I can think of. Then when a bunch of them went to Israel, the only place they had to go (with nothing in most cases) they get to be called "colonisers" decades later on Mumsnet?

Crikey!

Your view is so polarised, so biased and it really has nothing to do with the people involved. You have skimmed over everything I have written, dismissed the reality of life for Palestinian people and made this about accusing the other side of colonialism. This is really about you and not about them at all.

And sidebar, I find it incredibly telling that you feel entitled to speak over those of us from the region, while simultaneously trying to silence any dissenting viewpoint by positioning yourself as the moral gatekeeper of which analogies are permitted and by whom.

User37482 · 08/07/2025 13:39

BelleHathor · 08/07/2025 12:31

And having the cheek to invoke Rosa Parks name. No one who understands Black Liberation would even dare.

Theirin lies the problem, colonial talking points expressed as "facts".

She’s an arab, I think she knows her own culture pretty well. I thought her posts were interesting, insightful and definitely contribute a lot when.

I’ve lived in the middle east, I’m not an arab but a lot of this rings true. But no lets ignore the arab woman and listen to the activists from walthanstow instead because they definitely understand arab culture from the inside. 🙄.

Anonimummy · 08/07/2025 13:52

User37482 · 08/07/2025 13:39

She’s an arab, I think she knows her own culture pretty well. I thought her posts were interesting, insightful and definitely contribute a lot when.

I’ve lived in the middle east, I’m not an arab but a lot of this rings true. But no lets ignore the arab woman and listen to the activists from walthanstow instead because they definitely understand arab culture from the inside. 🙄.

It’s similar to the dismissal and mocking of Mosab Hassan Yousef as an Israeli paid shill, let’s ignore that he risked his very life and prevented numerous terrorist attacks because he became so disillusioned by the Hamas ideology and how they treated their own.

His being born into and raised in the Hamas ideology with his father as a founder, even being in an Israeli prison on terrorism charges is to be dismissed as he doesn’t speak the narrative those who shout loudest want to hear.

BelleHathor · 08/07/2025 14:15

It's not me positioning myself as some sort of "moral gatekeeper" or invoking my ethnicity to present myself as an expert on the region.

It's like I said no one who understands Black Liberation would invoke Rosa Parks in a long winded justification of the Palestinians current situation.

However that's a conversation I will save for Black spaces, where whats understood doesn't need to be said.

p.s. Nasser didn't expel the Egyptian Jewish population for "no reason".

The Lavon affair and the Suez invasion by Israel, Britain and France played a large role.

https://www.jewishpress.com/sections/features/features-on-jewish-world/the-disturbing-legacy-of-operation-susannah-and-the-lavon-affair/2022/03/30/

The Disturbing Legacy Of ‘Operation Susannah’ And The Lavon Affair

Ben Gurion used the broad public demand in Israel for a retaliatory action against Egypt to launch a February 28, 1955, attack on Gaza in which 39 Egyptians were killed and Israel suffered no casualties.

https://www.jewishpress.com/sections/features/features-on-jewish-world/the-disturbing-legacy-of-operation-susannah-and-the-lavon-affair/2022/03/30/

Maryslion · 08/07/2025 14:23

“Israelis believe, with terrifying sincerity, that if they only bomb Gaza harder, if they only kill a few more Hamas commanders, if they only show even less mercy then maybe finally the Palestinians will give up. But the opposite is true. You can kill the people, but you can’t kill the idea. You can flatten Gaza, but you can’t destroy the rage. When you trap people for generations and deny them basic human rights, don’t ask why they fight back. Ask what kind of peace you expected from people you’ve kept caged for decades.”

This is only half the story though isn't it? And its a somewhat patronising idea that Gazans have no agency but only act in reaction to Israel.

Huge amounts of aid flowed into Gaza after Israel left in 2005. That could have been used to build Gaza and establish peace. Once Palestinians and Israel believe they can co-exist in peace a real future for both can begin. Israel leaving Gaza in 2005 could have been the start of that long slow process. But Hamas do not want that. So they stole the Aid money to enrich the leadership and to prepare for the terrorist atrocity of October 7th. Hamas are an Islamist organisation with an Islamist agenda. They do not just exist in reaction to Israel but have their own worldview beliefs and agenda that they are mercilessly pursuing. And they give not one shit about the people of Gaza.

Maryslion · 08/07/2025 14:27

ForgesOfEmpires · 08/07/2025 02:00

This is just not true though. The vast majority of people who are oppressed one way or another, in poverty or living with restricted rights do not blow up school buses. I understand you mean well, but this is the racism of low expectations.

It also denies the point. Hamas didn't invade Israel to get rights for Palestinians. In actual fact, Hamas control the vast majority of the "rights" Palestinians have and they denied their population:

freedom of movement (they charged extortionate fees for exit visas)
freedom of press
freedom to expression
freedom from torture
right to a fair trial
right to equality under law regardless of religion, sexual orientation or gender
freedom from arbitrary detention
political participation in elections
adequate health, food, housing

Israel was not denying those things. Hamas was. So their invasion on 7 October wasn't to gain freedom from oppression. It was to kill Jews and annihilate their country so they could turn it into a slightly bigger terrorist dictatorship!

Palestinians would have been much better served by stopping the killing and violence, stopping vowing to annihilate Israel and building peace than they would be trying to indiscriminately kill Israelis which is what led to the blockade to begin with.

It is simply nothing like the Ireland situation and it's not a hard luck story, but more a case of making choices. Plenty of people have been displaced, myself included. It isn't a given that you will decide to kidnap people, and it certainly isn't natural.

Another hard agree.

ForgesOfEmpires · 08/07/2025 14:44

BelleHathor · 08/07/2025 14:15

It's not me positioning myself as some sort of "moral gatekeeper" or invoking my ethnicity to present myself as an expert on the region.

It's like I said no one who understands Black Liberation would invoke Rosa Parks in a long winded justification of the Palestinians current situation.

However that's a conversation I will save for Black spaces, where whats understood doesn't need to be said.

p.s. Nasser didn't expel the Egyptian Jewish population for "no reason".

The Lavon affair and the Suez invasion by Israel, Britain and France played a large role.

https://www.jewishpress.com/sections/features/features-on-jewish-world/the-disturbing-legacy-of-operation-susannah-and-the-lavon-affair/2022/03/30/

Great, so let's agree I don't understand Black Liberation.

And you don't understand Palestine or the middle east.

Or do you understand both and I understand neither?

Just for clarification!