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Conflict in the Middle East

Hamas nearly gone?

159 replies

mids2019 · 06/07/2025 18:10

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gk79xlzwjo

This is important. Hamas are nearly defeated and so is it in Israel's interests to finish the job? It will be interesting to see if Hamas actually have authority when it comes to negotiations or whether they are a busted flush outrageously demanding concessions when they are defeated.

It seems Palestinian society is descending into a barbaric chaos and I don't how these armed gangs will be represented in future Gazan governance unless it is broken up into clan fiefdoms?

Displaced Palestinian children play inside a destroyed police car in a temporary camp within the site of the Arafat Police Academy, in the destroyed police camp affiliated with Hamas, in Gaza City (10 April 2025)

Hamas security officer says group has lost control over most of Gaza /OR/ Hamas security officer says clans filling void as group loses control of Gaza

The officer says Israeli strikes have devastated the group's leadership and structure, and that armed clans are filling the void.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gk79xlzwjo

OP posts:
User37482 · 07/07/2025 06:40

REDB99 · 06/07/2025 19:48

I cannot stand Hamas and would like them gone completely, they have horribly abused the people of Gaza. Israel’s objective is to obliterate them but at the cost of thousands of civilians lives. Hamas make money (amongst other ways) by stealing aid trucks and selling the food at inflated prices to civilians. They have used Gazan’s as human shields for far too long.
But what replaces them? Something that will no doubt inflict more misery on the people who live there.

Maybe they replace it with themselves? Many arab societies organised around clan and tribe are ok. The gulf countries function like this and are stable. The democratic ones struggle more due to sectarianism and clan loyalty.

User37482 · 07/07/2025 06:43

TakeMe2Insanity · 06/07/2025 22:01

Well Israel has nearly taken out most of the civilian population so yeah why not finish job. While they are at it they take out the rest of kids, or maybe make sure they need prosthetics. Ridiculous.

This is the kind of ignorance that really doesn’t help. You are factually wrong yet you repeat it, either because you believe things which are not true, you never checked but it sounds “truthy” or you know it’s not true but you want to amplify falsehoods to support a particular narrative.

JustGoClickLikeALightSwitch · 07/07/2025 06:47

As a Jew who doesn’t agree with some PP - for example, history didn’t start in 1948 or even 1848 - you can’t bomb your way to peace imo. There is/will be a generation of angry young Gazans who have seen death and destruction. Will Iran, still hellbent on Israeli destruction, fund Hamas 2.0, or worse? Do they have the capacity to? Where is Israel going politically once Bibi finally fucks off? How will US/Israeli and Israeli/international relations shift post-war?

I don’t see much good in the near future sadly, for either Gazan people or Jews in Israel.

millimouse · 07/07/2025 06:54

sualipa · 06/07/2025 21:25

People talk about “wiping out” Hamas as if that would solve everything. But history shows us that when a people are oppressed, something always rises in resistance. After the Great Famine in Ireland when over a million died and many more were forced to emigration groups like the Fenian Brotherhood emerged. They weren’t born in a vacuum. They were born of starvation, grief, humiliation, and injustice under British rule.

It’s not so different in Palestine. Since the Nakba in 1948, millions of Palestinians have lived as refugees, or under military occupation, or trapped behind blockades. Generations have grown up stateless, with no rights and no hope. Of course people resist. Sometimes violently, sometimes peacefully but always from a place of deep pain.

Unless Israel truly reckons with the original injustice of the Nakba the mass displacement of Palestinians it will never understand why so many feel they have nothing left to lose. Lip service to peace won’t fix it. You can’t bomb away the anger and grief of entire generations. That only makes it worse.

This isn’t about justifying violence. It’s about recognising that crushing people into poverty and despair doesn’t make them compliant it makes them desperate. Just like in Ireland, you can’t eliminate the resistance without addressing what gave rise to it.

Until there’s justice and dignity for Palestinians, the rubble of Gaza will keep producing something new and probably something more desperate.

As Israeli journalist Gideon Levy wrote:

“Israelis believe, with terrifying sincerity, that if they only bomb Gaza harder, if they only kill a few more Hamas commanders, if they only show even less mercy then maybe finally the Palestinians will give up. But the opposite is true. You can kill the people, but you can’t kill the idea. You can flatten Gaza, but you can’t destroy the rage. When you trap people for generations and deny them basic human rights, don’t ask why they fight back. Ask what kind of peace you expected from people you’ve kept caged for decades.”

Thank you for this post.

SharonEllis · 07/07/2025 06:58

TakeMe2Insanity · 06/07/2025 22:01

Well Israel has nearly taken out most of the civilian population so yeah why not finish job. While they are at it they take out the rest of kids, or maybe make sure they need prosthetics. Ridiculous.

No they haven't unless you are saying the vast majority of people in Gaza are Hamas operatives and the 6% or so of the population that have been killed were all civilians and only around 6% of the population could count as civilian. Which of course we know not to be true as we know that most of the Hamas high command have been killed along with lesser operatives.

Dangermoo · 07/07/2025 08:11

User37482 · 07/07/2025 06:39

I listen to a podcast where one of the presenters is Arab. There was an interesting conversation about how in Arab culture theres this idea of letting things play out till the end in a conflict so you have a victor. It’s not the same as the western view of negotiation and settlements. It’s a culturally distinct view that non arabs may find a bit uncomfortable.

The reality is this may very much be the view of Gazans when it comes to an internal conflict. The clans have been fighting Hamas for a little while now, they near destroyed a hospital in Khan Younis when they went looking for Hamas (funny how they knew they would be under a hospital).

I think the antipathy towards Hamas is clear, Hamas is executing and torturing Gazans left right and centre. I think there will be some sort of settlement between the clans at some point after this and some acknowledgement finally that whatever Hamas has been doing it hasn’t worked in the interests of Gazans at all. Israel clearing up more Hamas is only going to help Gazans get out from under them.

It’ll be interesting to see what Gazans think of all this when the dust settles and they can speak freely because the war will end at some point. I imagine they will have some choice words for both Hamas and the Israelis which I don’t think you can blame civilians for. There have been anti Hamas protests in the strip before that have been put down quite brutally, I’m not sure if the “Hamas is the resistance” people know that (I suspect they don’t because they often don’t know extremely basic facts).

This whole thing is an unfortunate consequence of war, Hamas’s don’t want this war to end because it spells their end. If they wanted a conclusion they could hand back the remaining hostages in exchange for free passage out of Gaza (this has been done before with the PLO) not sure who would take them, personally I think it should be Iran and Qatar. The Saudis are offering Israel normalisation contingent on the removal of Hamas from the strip and a peace process. So it’s not just that the Israelis themselves want to decimate Hamas (which they rightly wish to do) the Abraham accord may hinge on this as well.

This is a fantastic (factual) post; unfortunately, the liberals don't want to believe it. They are too emotionally invested.

Dangermoo · 07/07/2025 08:13

sualipa · 06/07/2025 21:25

People talk about “wiping out” Hamas as if that would solve everything. But history shows us that when a people are oppressed, something always rises in resistance. After the Great Famine in Ireland when over a million died and many more were forced to emigration groups like the Fenian Brotherhood emerged. They weren’t born in a vacuum. They were born of starvation, grief, humiliation, and injustice under British rule.

It’s not so different in Palestine. Since the Nakba in 1948, millions of Palestinians have lived as refugees, or under military occupation, or trapped behind blockades. Generations have grown up stateless, with no rights and no hope. Of course people resist. Sometimes violently, sometimes peacefully but always from a place of deep pain.

Unless Israel truly reckons with the original injustice of the Nakba the mass displacement of Palestinians it will never understand why so many feel they have nothing left to lose. Lip service to peace won’t fix it. You can’t bomb away the anger and grief of entire generations. That only makes it worse.

This isn’t about justifying violence. It’s about recognising that crushing people into poverty and despair doesn’t make them compliant it makes them desperate. Just like in Ireland, you can’t eliminate the resistance without addressing what gave rise to it.

Until there’s justice and dignity for Palestinians, the rubble of Gaza will keep producing something new and probably something more desperate.

As Israeli journalist Gideon Levy wrote:

“Israelis believe, with terrifying sincerity, that if they only bomb Gaza harder, if they only kill a few more Hamas commanders, if they only show even less mercy then maybe finally the Palestinians will give up. But the opposite is true. You can kill the people, but you can’t kill the idea. You can flatten Gaza, but you can’t destroy the rage. When you trap people for generations and deny them basic human rights, don’t ask why they fight back. Ask what kind of peace you expected from people you’ve kept caged for decades.”

It's almost like there aren't two sides of the 'story'.

SharonEllis · 07/07/2025 08:22

User37482 · 07/07/2025 06:39

I listen to a podcast where one of the presenters is Arab. There was an interesting conversation about how in Arab culture theres this idea of letting things play out till the end in a conflict so you have a victor. It’s not the same as the western view of negotiation and settlements. It’s a culturally distinct view that non arabs may find a bit uncomfortable.

The reality is this may very much be the view of Gazans when it comes to an internal conflict. The clans have been fighting Hamas for a little while now, they near destroyed a hospital in Khan Younis when they went looking for Hamas (funny how they knew they would be under a hospital).

I think the antipathy towards Hamas is clear, Hamas is executing and torturing Gazans left right and centre. I think there will be some sort of settlement between the clans at some point after this and some acknowledgement finally that whatever Hamas has been doing it hasn’t worked in the interests of Gazans at all. Israel clearing up more Hamas is only going to help Gazans get out from under them.

It’ll be interesting to see what Gazans think of all this when the dust settles and they can speak freely because the war will end at some point. I imagine they will have some choice words for both Hamas and the Israelis which I don’t think you can blame civilians for. There have been anti Hamas protests in the strip before that have been put down quite brutally, I’m not sure if the “Hamas is the resistance” people know that (I suspect they don’t because they often don’t know extremely basic facts).

This whole thing is an unfortunate consequence of war, Hamas’s don’t want this war to end because it spells their end. If they wanted a conclusion they could hand back the remaining hostages in exchange for free passage out of Gaza (this has been done before with the PLO) not sure who would take them, personally I think it should be Iran and Qatar. The Saudis are offering Israel normalisation contingent on the removal of Hamas from the strip and a peace process. So it’s not just that the Israelis themselves want to decimate Hamas (which they rightly wish to do) the Abraham accord may hinge on this as well.

Great post, do you remember what the podcast was? Would like to listen.

sualipa · 07/07/2025 08:27

mids2019 · 07/07/2025 04:23

1Dayatatime

I think I can answer why so may pro Palestinians do not reference ww2. A large portion of people supporting Palestininians probably believe that ww2 was a conflict between ex colonial powers and therefore is of little relevance in their father strange world view. There are probably very few who participate in pro Palestinian marches who wear poppies for instance.

I think this calls for more education about ww2 including the Holocaust and ensuring it remains a relevant high profile part of the school curriculum. By learning about the Holocaust and the civilian death tolls in Europe , Russia and Japan (not exclusively ) the youth of today can put this war in the middle East into context.

I think also those so keen to use the genocide narrative will reflect that 46000 civil and died during the blitz which was indiscriminate bombing of London with the sole intent of terrorising citizens. The pro Palestinian mob would benefit reading about British history as well as watching tik tok.

In my case, that's simply not true. My grandfather who I never knew fought in WWI and was gassed on the Somme. He was a carpenter who struggled to work after the war, and my mother (long since gone) vividly remembered the National Assistance Board coming round to the house, looking in every cupboard to find things to sell before the family would receive any meagre help.

He never joined the British Legion, never attended Armistice Day celebrations, and never once spoke about the war.

My father God rest his soul worked at Woolwich Arsenal as a teenager in the late 1930s. He tried to join up in 1939, but his eyesight let him down. He eventually got the service he sought in 1940. He joined the Royal Signals and served in South Africa, Libya, Egypt, Italy, and ultimately ended up in a ruined Germany.

He had hundreds of books in the house and taught me virtually everything I know. We sat down together as a family to watch The World at War, and he was a fountain of information. He firmly believed in a Jewish homeland and held a contempt surpassing every bone in his mild body for the evil they wrought. He reserved a burning hatred for Hitler, and often said he hoped there was a hell so Hitler could burn there for eternity.

That said, he was a socialist who, like most of his compatriots, voted for the Labour government of 1945 over Churchill’s Tories. He fully supported the birth of Israel. He also believed the Arabs had been badly treated, and he met quite a few while on active service during the war some were employed as support staff.

He left me with an inquisitive mind, a love for history, and a desire to seek the truth.

Israel is a relatively new country, born in a more progressive, post-colonial Western world. Its birth pains are more raw and visible than those of more settled nations. But it was never simply “a land for a people without a land” around 700,000 people were already living there, and they had no desire to leave. In that original injustice, and in the settlements that followed, lie the roots of today’s conflict.

Something has to give but it won’t come from the leaders of Hamas or Netanyahu and his extremist supporters. They are not the solution; they are the problem.

Palestinians know their rich and varied history they are not the simplistic cyphers of terrorism and evil that some would like to portray. For anyone seeking a concise and powerful account of the Arab Revolt - which surprised me when I read it recently , I recommend the work of Ghassan Kanafani, the great Palestinian writer assassinated by the Israelis in 1972. His account was meant to be the first chapter of a full history of the Palestinian struggle tragically unfinished at his death. His famous interview with an Australian TV company is celebrated to this day - he was a leader of the PFLP a marxist organsiation that used early terrorist methods to try and advance their aims.

But we have to get to the point where killing is never justified by everybody or in the end the logic that might is right lies at the end of that bloody road. But he powerfully makes the point well over 50 years ago as to why they fight.

The victors often get to write history, but some voices deserve never to be forgotten. Palestinians are not what some would wish them to be they are a people with memory, culture, resistance, and a rightful claim to dignity.

https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii147/articles/the-neck-and-the-sword

Rashid Khalidi, The Neck and The Sword, NLR 147, May–June 2024

Rashid Khalidi and Tariq Ali discuss the political and intellectual history of the Palestinian national movement, its fraught entanglement with neighbouring Arab regimes, the realities of the ‘peace process’, Israel’s grip on the Biden Administration a...

https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii147/articles/the-neck-and-the-sword

User37482 · 07/07/2025 08:29

sualipa · 06/07/2025 21:25

People talk about “wiping out” Hamas as if that would solve everything. But history shows us that when a people are oppressed, something always rises in resistance. After the Great Famine in Ireland when over a million died and many more were forced to emigration groups like the Fenian Brotherhood emerged. They weren’t born in a vacuum. They were born of starvation, grief, humiliation, and injustice under British rule.

It’s not so different in Palestine. Since the Nakba in 1948, millions of Palestinians have lived as refugees, or under military occupation, or trapped behind blockades. Generations have grown up stateless, with no rights and no hope. Of course people resist. Sometimes violently, sometimes peacefully but always from a place of deep pain.

Unless Israel truly reckons with the original injustice of the Nakba the mass displacement of Palestinians it will never understand why so many feel they have nothing left to lose. Lip service to peace won’t fix it. You can’t bomb away the anger and grief of entire generations. That only makes it worse.

This isn’t about justifying violence. It’s about recognising that crushing people into poverty and despair doesn’t make them compliant it makes them desperate. Just like in Ireland, you can’t eliminate the resistance without addressing what gave rise to it.

Until there’s justice and dignity for Palestinians, the rubble of Gaza will keep producing something new and probably something more desperate.

As Israeli journalist Gideon Levy wrote:

“Israelis believe, with terrifying sincerity, that if they only bomb Gaza harder, if they only kill a few more Hamas commanders, if they only show even less mercy then maybe finally the Palestinians will give up. But the opposite is true. You can kill the people, but you can’t kill the idea. You can flatten Gaza, but you can’t destroy the rage. When you trap people for generations and deny them basic human rights, don’t ask why they fight back. Ask what kind of peace you expected from people you’ve kept caged for decades.”

I really don’t thinking leaving Gazans with Hamas is a good option. I’m thinking about the sake of the Gazans here.

Before 7th October Gazans regularly travelled into Israel for work and healthcare etc. Someone on twitter made a really good point about why Gaza cannot have an airport, no insurance company would cover flights to and from Gaza given the history of Palestinian hi-jackings by people like the PLO, no-ones going to be running flights out of there. Thats not Israels doing that’s Hamas. They taxed good coming into Gaza, not to spend on public utilities but to dig tunnels.

Is the situation brilliant for average Gazans before 7th October? Not really. How did they get there? Think the answer is Hamas.

Why was there even a fence around Gaza? When was it built? Have you asked yourself those questions? Hamas have dragged Gazana further and further into degradation and poverty (not all Gazans, theres some pretty chubby Hamas members out there).

I just don’t think you can be pro-Palestinian and also pro leaving Hamas in place. I wouldn’t want to live under them.

User37482 · 07/07/2025 08:42

sualipa · 07/07/2025 08:27

In my case, that's simply not true. My grandfather who I never knew fought in WWI and was gassed on the Somme. He was a carpenter who struggled to work after the war, and my mother (long since gone) vividly remembered the National Assistance Board coming round to the house, looking in every cupboard to find things to sell before the family would receive any meagre help.

He never joined the British Legion, never attended Armistice Day celebrations, and never once spoke about the war.

My father God rest his soul worked at Woolwich Arsenal as a teenager in the late 1930s. He tried to join up in 1939, but his eyesight let him down. He eventually got the service he sought in 1940. He joined the Royal Signals and served in South Africa, Libya, Egypt, Italy, and ultimately ended up in a ruined Germany.

He had hundreds of books in the house and taught me virtually everything I know. We sat down together as a family to watch The World at War, and he was a fountain of information. He firmly believed in a Jewish homeland and held a contempt surpassing every bone in his mild body for the evil they wrought. He reserved a burning hatred for Hitler, and often said he hoped there was a hell so Hitler could burn there for eternity.

That said, he was a socialist who, like most of his compatriots, voted for the Labour government of 1945 over Churchill’s Tories. He fully supported the birth of Israel. He also believed the Arabs had been badly treated, and he met quite a few while on active service during the war some were employed as support staff.

He left me with an inquisitive mind, a love for history, and a desire to seek the truth.

Israel is a relatively new country, born in a more progressive, post-colonial Western world. Its birth pains are more raw and visible than those of more settled nations. But it was never simply “a land for a people without a land” around 700,000 people were already living there, and they had no desire to leave. In that original injustice, and in the settlements that followed, lie the roots of today’s conflict.

Something has to give but it won’t come from the leaders of Hamas or Netanyahu and his extremist supporters. They are not the solution; they are the problem.

Palestinians know their rich and varied history they are not the simplistic cyphers of terrorism and evil that some would like to portray. For anyone seeking a concise and powerful account of the Arab Revolt - which surprised me when I read it recently , I recommend the work of Ghassan Kanafani, the great Palestinian writer assassinated by the Israelis in 1972. His account was meant to be the first chapter of a full history of the Palestinian struggle tragically unfinished at his death. His famous interview with an Australian TV company is celebrated to this day - he was a leader of the PFLP a marxist organsiation that used early terrorist methods to try and advance their aims.

But we have to get to the point where killing is never justified by everybody or in the end the logic that might is right lies at the end of that bloody road. But he powerfully makes the point well over 50 years ago as to why they fight.

The victors often get to write history, but some voices deserve never to be forgotten. Palestinians are not what some would wish them to be they are a people with memory, culture, resistance, and a rightful claim to dignity.

https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii147/articles/the-neck-and-the-sword

Wasn’t he assassinated for the massacre at Lod airport?

I don’t think anyone is denying they Palestinians exist. This is the weird language you get around marxist projects, people who disagree are accused of not believing the people they disagree with exist. See at all the time with Trans people, accusations that people don’t think they exist. Of course they exist, someone disagreeing with the story you tell about yourself doesn’t mean they don’t believe you exist. It’s a nonsense statement. It’s a bit like when the pro terrorism lot say Jews are all European and have nothing to do with the Levant, Jewish people would be silly to think that these people don’t think they exist, they just disagree with the Jewish story. The problem for those people is the Jewish story is extremely well documented and they are just wrong.

I would argue that Israel is an ancient country given that Christians and Muslims both mention it in their holy books. If you are building your holy sites ontop of their holy sites then they were probably there before you. It existed before either was a twinkle in their founder eyes. I see Jews as a middle eastern tribe if you will.

But all that is irrelevant really, the Palestinians are there and that needs to be respected. They have a right to live where they live. But partitions have happened and sometimes people for whatever reason cannot live side by side.

The question is not whether either the Israelis or the Palestinians have a right to live there (unless you are a complete extremist who either wants all the Palestinians gone or the destruction of Israel). The question is how do they live there in peace and security for everyone.

sualipa · 07/07/2025 08:52

User37482 · 07/07/2025 08:42

Wasn’t he assassinated for the massacre at Lod airport?

I don’t think anyone is denying they Palestinians exist. This is the weird language you get around marxist projects, people who disagree are accused of not believing the people they disagree with exist. See at all the time with Trans people, accusations that people don’t think they exist. Of course they exist, someone disagreeing with the story you tell about yourself doesn’t mean they don’t believe you exist. It’s a nonsense statement. It’s a bit like when the pro terrorism lot say Jews are all European and have nothing to do with the Levant, Jewish people would be silly to think that these people don’t think they exist, they just disagree with the Jewish story. The problem for those people is the Jewish story is extremely well documented and they are just wrong.

I would argue that Israel is an ancient country given that Christians and Muslims both mention it in their holy books. If you are building your holy sites ontop of their holy sites then they were probably there before you. It existed before either was a twinkle in their founder eyes. I see Jews as a middle eastern tribe if you will.

But all that is irrelevant really, the Palestinians are there and that needs to be respected. They have a right to live where they live. But partitions have happened and sometimes people for whatever reason cannot live side by side.

The question is not whether either the Israelis or the Palestinians have a right to live there (unless you are a complete extremist who either wants all the Palestinians gone or the destruction of Israel). The question is how do they live there in peace and security for everyone.

He was along with his niece. Mossad are masters at dispensing rough justice. But terrorism has existed on both sides. Haganah, Irgun, and the Stern Gang were also responsible for diabolical acts, and they were the forerunners of the IDF.

I have no idea how to solve this "problem"—but it starts with a ceasefire and humanitarian aid, and quickly.

RoastSquash · 07/07/2025 09:12

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 07/07/2025 04:36

What a bunch of gaslighters.

Repeating hyperbolic, emotive and highly inaccurate claims is irresponsible, divisive and intended to provoke. Countering that with the reality is not gaslighting, no matter how difficult some people find it having false narratives challenged.

User37482 · 07/07/2025 09:13

sualipa · 07/07/2025 08:52

He was along with his niece. Mossad are masters at dispensing rough justice. But terrorism has existed on both sides. Haganah, Irgun, and the Stern Gang were also responsible for diabolical acts, and they were the forerunners of the IDF.

I have no idea how to solve this "problem"—but it starts with a ceasefire and humanitarian aid, and quickly.

Ceasefires are not effective when you are just allowing the conditions for history repeating itself to occur. Removal of Hamas is required for any future stability tbh. The ugly truth about war is that some things have to done fully to guarantee peace. Thinking of the Japanese and WW2 or the bombing of dresden here. I’m saying that as someone who thinks the bombing of Japan and the bombing of civilians in Dresden was one of the most horrific things to have happened in history. BUT it guaranteed long term peace, many millions of people are alive today precisely because those wars were nipped in the bud. I see why the arabs/islamic world take the view they do tbh, it’s conclusive. I don’t think activists in the west are very good at taking the long view tbh.

There was a story (I’m a bit fuzzy heard it a few years ago) about how during the Yemeni civil war the democratic forces (with the help of the emiratis etc) basically had the Houthis over a barrel, they were about to bomb a port when western aid agencies stepped in and started pressuring their own western governments to stop it because the port was required for aid shipments. So the democratic forces conceded. This just prolonged the civil war and resulted in people who like things like slavery and some weird theologically justified Yemeni caste system and child soldiers to come in. It also resulted in way more dead people. The story was told by a pro democracy Yemeni btw. Sometimes western intervention while well meaning does more harm than good.

What would help is if WFP organised with GHF to distribute aid in North Gaza. But they are refusing, imagine that, claiming you want to feed people but then refusing, I would work with anyone to get aid in.

I do want to say as well you are absolutely right to point out Jewish terrorism as well. It happened and we do well to tell the truth.

GuevarasBeret · 07/07/2025 09:39

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millimouse · 07/07/2025 09:45

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Hear Hear

Dangermoo · 07/07/2025 10:07

SharonEllis · 07/07/2025 08:22

Great post, do you remember what the podcast was? Would like to listen.

Yes, me too Sharon.

Whatsinanamehey · 07/07/2025 10:08

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Well said.

sualipa · 07/07/2025 10:16

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As flawed as international law and institutions may be, Trump and Netanyahu have gone to great lengths to smear, undermine, and attempt to dismantle the very bodies that were established from the ashes of a world devastated by war. It is utterly shameful.

sualipa · 07/07/2025 10:25

sualipa · 07/07/2025 10:16

As flawed as international law and institutions may be, Trump and Netanyahu have gone to great lengths to smear, undermine, and attempt to dismantle the very bodies that were established from the ashes of a world devastated by war. It is utterly shameful.

And you can't pick and choose which rulings you want;

Keir Starmer

MP, Leader of the Labour Party, responding to the International Criminal Court issuing an arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin, said:

"I welcome the International Criminal Court's decision to open war crime cases against Vladimir Putin and other senior Russian figures for their barbaric actions in Ukraine.
"Today's announcement sends an important message: there will no hiding place for Putin and his cronies and the world is determined to make them pay for what they have done.
"I have seen first-hand the destruction and devastation waged on the brave people of Ukraine. These cases are just the tip of the iceberg. One day Putin will face justice: until then, the focus of all who believe in Ukraine's liberty and freedom must continue to be on ensuring her victory."

PolicyMogul - Champions of public affairs

PolicyMogul is an all-in-one public affairs and political monitoring platform. We make it easy to monitor, influence and analyse parliament, government and policymakers

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1dayatatime · 07/07/2025 11:09

@GuevarasBeret
@Whatsinanamehey

"That’s absolute nonsense. The concept of genocide in law has existed since 1945, and “it’s politically motivated” gets trotted out by everyone accused of it."

You are incredibly naive if you think that political motivations have no part to play in accusations of and convictions for genocide or war crimes.

If you disagree then how do you explain that no British, American or Russian politicians or military leaders were ever prosecuted for genocide against Germany despite 6.8% of the population being killed and millions being ethnically cleansed from the say Prussia and other areas.

How do you explain the very few war crimes trials against allied forces- why wasn't the Katyn Massacre ever prosecuted etc?

The reason was political motivation - the allies were on the winning side and saw no reason to prosecute their own forces or create negative publicity.

If your argument is that it's only post 1945 conflicts that count then why no war crimes trials against British forces for the Falklands or why no UN trials against China for genocide against the Uighurs?

User37482 · 07/07/2025 11:34

Dangermoo · 07/07/2025 10:07

Yes, me too Sharon.

Conflicted, very focused on the history of the middle east, hosts are an almost christian monk and ex alqaeda.

The series on Yemen is hands down the most interesting thing I have ever listened to.

User37482 · 07/07/2025 11:48

1dayatatime · 07/07/2025 11:09

@GuevarasBeret
@Whatsinanamehey

"That’s absolute nonsense. The concept of genocide in law has existed since 1945, and “it’s politically motivated” gets trotted out by everyone accused of it."

You are incredibly naive if you think that political motivations have no part to play in accusations of and convictions for genocide or war crimes.

If you disagree then how do you explain that no British, American or Russian politicians or military leaders were ever prosecuted for genocide against Germany despite 6.8% of the population being killed and millions being ethnically cleansed from the say Prussia and other areas.

How do you explain the very few war crimes trials against allied forces- why wasn't the Katyn Massacre ever prosecuted etc?

The reason was political motivation - the allies were on the winning side and saw no reason to prosecute their own forces or create negative publicity.

If your argument is that it's only post 1945 conflicts that count then why no war crimes trials against British forces for the Falklands or why no UN trials against China for genocide against the Uighurs?

I think for genocide ypu have to show the intent is to actually genocide a people. The British weren’t trying to kill all Germans when they dropped a bomb on Dresden they were trying to win a war. What happened to the Jews on the other hand was unequivocally a genocide. What happened to the Rohyinga was clearly ethnic cleansing. I don’t think that the accusations of genocide in this case are so clear. I also don’t think arabs believe it either. If there was a genuine belief this was a genocide Egypt could have opened the Rafah crossing. They didn’t, they reinforced it. I remember the footage of them moving giant blocks to the crossing.

The line between war and genocide is where it matters. Wars we don’t like don’t become genocide because we picked a side or because civilians got killed. Show me a single war where there weren’t civilian casualties.

dairydebris · 07/07/2025 11:50

TakeMe2Insanity · 06/07/2025 22:01

Well Israel has nearly taken out most of the civilian population so yeah why not finish job. While they are at it they take out the rest of kids, or maybe make sure they need prosthetics. Ridiculous.

Does anyone know why mumsnet lets posts like this stay? It's misinformation at best, an outright lie with the intent to inflame hatred at worst... I think its hate speech... does anyone know why?

Twiglets1 · 07/07/2025 11:58

dairydebris · 07/07/2025 11:50

Does anyone know why mumsnet lets posts like this stay? It's misinformation at best, an outright lie with the intent to inflame hatred at worst... I think its hate speech... does anyone know why?

Misinformation isn’t a reason for posts to get deleted so it’s good that people like you do challenge misinformation.

I do agree it’s hate speech & definitely inflammatory but I guess that is subjective so it depends on the opinion of the individual mod at MNHQ. I hope they try very hard to be impartial, though it doesn’t always feel that way to us.