To wish those in Israel safety in these coming times

[mids2019]

Israel is a country at war and I know many will have links or family in that country so I think it appropriate to wish them safety in the coming days.

Of course I don’t know every individual’s views. But when people support or remain silent in the face of policies like collective punishment, siege, and displacement, they are complicit in a system that dehumanises others. If someone cheers on that kind of violence, I’m not going to pretend I feel the same sympathy for them as I do for those who have suffered under it for generations.

But you didnt just say you have no sympathy for them, you actively wished harm on them.

Personally I have sympathy for any innocent civilian who is killed, regardless of their personal views. Including Palestinians and Iranians who wish harm on Israelis. Who I assume you also have no sympathy for.

Of course Israel would not be at risk if Iran had nuclear weapons. Firing on Israel would guarantee retaliation and the total destruction of Iran. The Iranians know that, they just want to join the nuclear club.
Whilst it's undesirable that there is yet another nuclear power in the world, Israel would be under no greater danger.
Iran trying to obtain nuclear warheads is simply being used as an excuse to bring down Iran, an Idea that has been in the mind of Israel and the US for the past 15 years. It's all part of the confected paranoia that there is an existential threat to Israel and that the nation is on the verge of being driven into the sea and therefore it is free to use whatever force it wants to counter this.

Part of Netanyahu's obscene aggression, in response to the Hamas barbarity, is his testing of the waters, to see just how far Israel can go before the rest of the world says "stop" .
To date, the deaths of tens of thousands and the devastation of a state has led to little more that a " We'd rather you didn't" from most of the western world. Oh yes, interspersed with.... "You have the right to defend yourself".

Yet another of the world's conflict where morality is subsumed by vested interests.

I said I wish for Israelis what they wish for Palestinians, and I later clarified that to mean safety, dignity, and freedom for all. What I challenged was the expectation of unconditional sympathy from those who support or excuse the brutal treatment of others.

Anyway, stop nitpicking my words. There are far more urgent things to be morally outraged about than my post, like the ongoing starvation in Gaza.

There was an interesting article in the Times last week written by someone of the opinion that we in the West simply can't understand the mindset of the religious fanatics of Iran's leadership. They felt that Iran would indeed almost glory in knowing the missiles were heading their way, and that glorious death was imminent. There was also an interesting section about how 20,000 children were joyfully sent to their deaths in minefields during the Iran / Iraq conflict. Their point was that this regime doesn't think the way we think it does.

I think Israel would be at risk if Iran had nuclear weapons. Its become clear to me from a few threads on here recently that lots of people don't believe that's the case- I see you're one of them. I guess I think Iran has been happy to fund such atrocities as 7 October, commits awful human rights abuses on its own people, I believe the risk of them getting hold of nuclear weapons is worth avoiding. I really hope you're right and I'm wrong- or at least Iran's nuclear ambitions have been set back decades by the Israeli strikes.

Matthew Syed's piece. It's an interesting read.

@mouthpipette Whatever you think of Israel and the US, surely you understand the misery and destruction that's been caused by Iran over the years, within its own borders, as well as the wider Middle East?

So because there are worse things in the world I should ignore people saying they wish harm on others? Because despite you trying to backtrack that is what you said.

We’re just going round in circles so let’s just leave it there

Nicely written up by a think tank years ago, including plans to use Israel as a proxy to start the conflict and take most of the blame leaving America to lie that they're uninvolved.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/which-path-to-persia-options-for-a-new-american-strategy-toward-iran/

"The US plan for war with Iran always included options to have Israel strike Iran on Washington's behalf with fake talks used to provide the US plausible deniability.

This is spelled out in detail in policy papers including Brookings' "Which Path to Persia?" report from 2009.

If you're not reading the policy papers you are just guessing at best, at worst helping the US get away with a war it itself engineered and enabled Israel to fight on its behalf and hoped to pin culpability solely on Israel for.

https://x.com/BrianJBerletic/status/1914690246807306642

p.s Chapter 5, "Leave it to Bibi: Allowing or Encouraging an Israeli Military Strike" starting on page 89 seems to be what the US is doing now.

@mouthpipette ”Of course Israel would not be at risk if Iran had nuclear weapons. Firing on Israel would guarantee retaliation and the total destruction of Iran. The Iranians know that, they just want to join the nuclear club.”

Pretty sure the Islamist extremists running Iran would be safe under the mountains when the attack is initiated, and consider the extermination of Israel a price worth paying.

Well they must have been psychic as there have been a few changes of US government since 2009 and Netanyahu was out of office for a while.

I think Netanyahu went in alone on this. Mossad has been in Iran for 20 years making preparations for when the need arose which was now. Similar to the Hezbollah pagers which was 10 years in the making. Bibi has amazing foresight and knows Israel’s enemies. These ideological fanantics don’t suddenly see the light.

The US is only getting involved due to the amazing wins Israel have had due to the above (which is all on Israel) and having a big chance of a successful operation.

If they hadn’t Trump would be still insisting on a ceasefire.

Of course, martyrs are positively welcomed and encouraged by these fanatics. I don’t understand why people still don’t get this.

See Hamas!

Annihilating Israel, which has a much smaller landmass than Iran and would be totally fucked by a nuclear weapon, uninhabitable for years, would be a cause for celebration in much of the Middle East, and the West, sadly as evidenced by the reaction to Oct 7th.

It's a good job Iran aren't even trying make nuclear weapons then isn't it?

I'm not sure why our attention isn't on places that are actually 'totally fucked' like Gaza which has had the equivalent of 6 Hiroshimas dropped on it rather than something that isn't even being planned to happen? Why are we wasting time talking about pretend nukes when there is a country who has declared their wish to ethnically cleanse somewhere, is actually doing it and people are calling the man who is doing it a hero? 100 kids a day every day for over 600 days dead or injured and our attention is on the made up world of 'if Israel got nuked'.

Given your superior knowledge and certainty on the matter I hope you've made yourself available to governments facing difficult defence decisions all over the world. It would be amazing to have somebody who was always, always right to consult with.

I care, I think Greta's analysis is great.

What attention taken off? Israel murdered over 50 people just this morning who were just trying to feed their families.

If Israel doesn't want bad attention, they should stop carrying out war crimes and a genocide of the Palestinians.

The immoral, evil, despicable IDF soldiers used tank fire to shoot at a group of civilians trying to reach aid centres.

How is anyone defending the IDF?

I wouldn't be surprised if Israel nuked Iran and posters on here would still be saying 'poor Israel were just defending themselves!'

Im guessing you dont actually watch the news or follpw social media. Night after night there is sympathetic coversge of the Palestinians. How have yoi missed the marches and demonstrations? The social media posts tik toks eyc. I mean this is a completely bizarre post.

I’m well aware of the coverage and the protests. I’ve seen the marches, the TikToks, and the statements of support. But acknowledging that some coverage and activism is sympathetic to Palestinians doesn’t mean there isn’t also an overwhelming amount of dehumanisation and double standards, especially when it comes to how Palestinian lives are valued in mainstream political and media discourse. Pointing that out isn’t “bizarre” it’s calling attention to an imbalance that very much exists.

It is bizarre because it is demonstrably untrue. Not to mention the huge number of threads on MN.

Well yes, thankfully ordinary people do stand with Palestine. The real disconnect is with our politicians and much of the media, who keep pushing narratives that excuse or downplay what is happening. That is what I am referring to.

And do you also wish for Palestinians what they have wished for Israelis? Would that also be an acceptable thing to say?

The BBC have stories about Gaza pretty much every day.

There’s a huge difference between a colonised, occupied people reacting to decades of oppression, and a nuclear-armed state systematically brutalising a population it controls. Palestinians didn’t choose this situation. Israel holds all the power. The land, the borders, the military, the economy. Trying to draw a false equivalence here just ignores that imbalance entirely.

When I said I wished for Israelis what they wish for Palestinians, I was holding up a mirror, not calling for violence, but forcing people to confront the cruelty that’s been normalised when it’s aimed at Palestinians. The only reason it feels extreme is because we’ve been conditioned to see Palestinian suffering as routine.

This whole response just feels like you’re grasping for moral outrage in my words rather than reckoning with the reality I was pointing to.