Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

Freedom Flotilla

1000 replies

Badh · 06/06/2025 23:11

Thought this might be worth its own thread. The freedom flotilla The Madleen was getting close to Gaza but seems to have made a diversion, as it was the closest boat to answer a distress call. They seem to also have four Sudanese asylum seekers on board who were trying to escape the Libyan coast patrol.

The UK and France are asking Israel for its safe passage.

The tracker is here but is in and out of action.
https://freedomflotilla.org/ffc-tracker/

More details here, although the latest detour is not covered in the article.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-navy-gears-up-to-block-high-profile-protest-ship-headed-for-gaza/amp/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
52
sualipa · 10/06/2025 09:41

devourfeculence · 10/06/2025 09:31

The same Grok which said it was sceptical about the number of people killed in the Holocaust? No thanks.

I've just checked Grok ;

Approximately 6 million Jews were killed during the Holocaust, along with millions of others, including Romani people, disabled individuals, political dissidents, and homosexuals. The total number of victims is estimated to be between 11 and 17 million, with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum citing around 15.5 million. Precise figures vary due to incomplete records and differing definitions of Holocaust refers to the systematic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million European Jews by Nazi Germany and its collaborators from 1933 to 1945. Exact numbers are difficult to pinpoint due to incomplete records and varying historical interpretations, but the Jewish genocide is the most well-documented figure.

izthiszeend · 10/06/2025 09:43

Nowayyousure · 10/06/2025 09:26

As I mentioned there is a difference to a terrorist attack and a conflict.

As I mentioned millions died in WW1 and WW2, conflict is brutal. I wouldn't call The Allies terrorists although they killed millions defending themselves. In WW1 an estimated 40 million died and in WW2 an estimated 85 million died. Huge numbers.

Again, there is a difference between terrorist attacks and conflicts.

Yep, Hitler Germany and imperial Japan did horrendous crimes, but nobody ever would call them terrorists. Because they were states.
So, yes, some state actions are worse than terrorism.

Badh · 10/06/2025 09:45

It also said that there was a genocide in South Africa.

I assume @sualipa isn’t thinking of Musk led AI though.

All we can do is not engage with posters that are doing so. People have given an awful lot of oxygen tp that particular poster, including myself. So it is probably the wrong thing to do,

OP posts:
NotABottie · 10/06/2025 09:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

izthiszeend · 10/06/2025 09:53

1dayatatime · 10/06/2025 08:28

Realistically though what did this flotilla actually achieve other than self promotion publicity for Greta Thunberg and her fellow passengers. It certainly wasn't publicity for Gaza and the Palestinians- this continues to be front page news.

They had a nice sailing trip across the Mediterranean in good weather, carrying minimal quantities of aid. They get stopped offshore, given sandwiches and water. They then get to watch a video of the 7th October terrorist attack and get sent on a free flight home.

All seems to be about shameless self promotion rather than genuinely trying to help ordinary Gazans.

Yeah, some minor celebrity did a PR stunt in a small boat.

Yet even that was too threatening for Israel to let them in. You think their selfies in Gaza would look bad? Why’s that?

It also draws attention to the inaction, or rather, complicity of our own European governments. Anyone expressed their condemnation of the piracy in the international waters? Exactly. We here this silence loud and clear.

NotABottie · 10/06/2025 10:00

sualipa · 10/06/2025 07:36

The campaign against Zaher Birawi is a textbook example of how intelligence tactics are used to discredit effective Palestinian advocates. Any international figure who gains real traction speaking up for Palestinian rights tends to come under intense scrutiny. If Israel genuinely had solid evidence linking someone like Birawi to Hamas or any banned group, they would share it with allies and we’d see arrests, charges, deportations. But that hasn’t happened.

Instead, when there’s no hard evidence and to avoid defamation claims the next tactic is often to get an MP to make the allegation in Parliament. Under parliamentary privilege, they can say whatever they like without needing to prove it. Once it’s said in the Commons, the media is free to report it, no matter how flimsy the source. The claim gains momentum as one outlet quotes another, and suddenly the allegation feels more credible just by repetition.

In Birawi’s case, NatWest closed his account over supposed terrorism links. But they later had to reverse that decision and pay compensation. If there had been anything substantial behind the claim, that wouldn’t have happened. The fact they backtracked so publicly speaks volumes about the weakness of the original allegation—and the damage that can be done by unproven smears.

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2023-10-26/debates/22ECC056-E236-41BA-95D5-84411C5098FF/details

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I provided advance notice of it to Mr Speaker earlier.

A few days ago, The Sunday Times reported on its front page that a “Hamas fugitive” who

“‘ran the group’s terrorist operations in the West Bank’”

lives here in London. Muhammad Qassem Sawalha is designated by Israel as a senior Hamas operative in Europe and accused of fleeing the country with fake documents. He is now believed to hold UK citizenship. Zaher Birawi lives in Barnet not far from Sawalha. He was designated by Israel in 2013 as a senior Hamas operative in Europe. He is listed as a trustee of a UK registered charity, Education Aid for Palestinians. A publicly available video shows him hosting a 2019 event in London titled “Understanding Hamas”.

Two weeks ago, Hamas launched the deadliest terror attack the world has seen since 9/11. This House rightly voted to proscribe Hamas in its entirety in November 2021. It is therefore a serious national security risk for Hamas operatives to be living here in London, especially where at least one appears to have done so through the use of fake documents in obtaining British citizenship.

Madam Deputy Speaker, can you advise me on how I might raise this with the Government as a matter of great urgency and ask if you have had any indication of a Minister seeking to come to the House to provide an urgent update on this matter?

You know better than Israeli intelligence (which is considered the best in the world btw) about Birawi?

Israel have just randomly picked him out as a Jordanian in London among all the others here?

Why are you defending him? Do you know him?

dairydebris · 10/06/2025 10:00

izthiszeend · 10/06/2025 09:53

Yeah, some minor celebrity did a PR stunt in a small boat.

Yet even that was too threatening for Israel to let them in. You think their selfies in Gaza would look bad? Why’s that?

It also draws attention to the inaction, or rather, complicity of our own European governments. Anyone expressed their condemnation of the piracy in the international waters? Exactly. We here this silence loud and clear.

This is unhinged.

Obviously Greta et al were removed from the situation for their own safety. They were attempting to sail into a war zone!

You can't honestly think Israel removed them because they were 'too threatening'?

Personally I think its achieved the opposite of what they clearly wanted- it's been great PR for Israel. Peacefully collecting their ridiculous boat, giving them sandwiches, packing them safely off home.

The only thing that's been drawn attention to is their own publicity seeking.

Martymcfly24 · 10/06/2025 10:02

NotABottie · 10/06/2025 10:00

You know better than Israeli intelligence (which is considered the best in the world btw) about Birawi?

Israel have just randomly picked him out as a Jordanian in London among all the others here?

Why are you defending him? Do you know him?

Pity their intelligence wasn't good enough to actually find Hamas operatives instead of just carpet bombing refugee tents.

devourfeculence · 10/06/2025 10:06

sualipa · 10/06/2025 09:41

I've just checked Grok ;

Approximately 6 million Jews were killed during the Holocaust, along with millions of others, including Romani people, disabled individuals, political dissidents, and homosexuals. The total number of victims is estimated to be between 11 and 17 million, with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum citing around 15.5 million. Precise figures vary due to incomplete records and differing definitions of Holocaust refers to the systematic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million European Jews by Nazi Germany and its collaborators from 1933 to 1945. Exact numbers are difficult to pinpoint due to incomplete records and varying historical interpretations, but the Jewish genocide is the most well-documented figure.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/elon-musk-x-grok-white-genocide-holocaust-1235341267/

Well yeah, they fixed it once they got found out.

But if you want to rely on Elon Musk's AI tool for info then knock yourself out. It would explain the extremely dodgy x link you posted earlier.

WASHINGTON, DC - APRIL 30: Elon Musk attends a Cabinet meeting with President Donald Trump on Wednesday April 30, 2025 at the White House in Washington, DC. (Photo by Yuri Gripas for The Washington Post via Getty Images)

Grok Pivots From 'White Genocide' to Being 'Skeptical' About the Holocaust

Elon Musk's Grok chatbot from xAI is no longer posting about the myth of 'white genocide' in South Africa but has dabbled in Holocaust denial.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/elon-musk-x-grok-white-genocide-holocaust-1235341267/

SharonEllis · 10/06/2025 10:08

izthiszeend · 10/06/2025 09:53

Yeah, some minor celebrity did a PR stunt in a small boat.

Yet even that was too threatening for Israel to let them in. You think their selfies in Gaza would look bad? Why’s that?

It also draws attention to the inaction, or rather, complicity of our own European governments. Anyone expressed their condemnation of the piracy in the international waters? Exactly. We here this silence loud and clear.

Ofgs. Its not because it was threatening. It was because its an active war zone. Who knows what Hamas and other militias or out of control gangs might have done to them? Can you you honestly not imagine the potential pitfalls of letting them in? And anyone who genuinely cares about Palestinians wouldn't want them becoming the story not the actual issues at hand.

Twiglets1 · 10/06/2025 10:08

Martymcfly24 · 10/06/2025 10:02

Pity their intelligence wasn't good enough to actually find Hamas operatives instead of just carpet bombing refugee tents.

No one knows how many Hamas operatives they have destroyed seeing as they are hidden amongst civilians.

So they may well have had intelligence of Hamas operatives living & working in that area.

Though I’m not condoning the bombing of refugee tents they may have had their reasons (not justifiable, in my opinion) from intelligence reports.

GretaGreen · 10/06/2025 10:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

And this is why I feel it is unfair for mumsnet to put the onus on the posters here to challenge misinformation. Either you let the misinformation stay or you are subjected to this.

Whatsinanamehey · 10/06/2025 10:13

Anyone who is against Israel's actions does not mean they support Hamas 🙄
Wtf is wrong with some people.

quantumbutterfly · 10/06/2025 10:14

YourOnMute · 10/06/2025 01:41

Actually many people that we now regard as statesmen of peace were accused of being terrorist sympathisers (Northern Ireland) (MLK) (suffragettes), terrorist agitators or actual terrorists (you could say the same for all three). Think of the history of any country's struggle from the colonial/racist yoke: full of them.
I'll admit I don't know enough to make a definitive case, but perspective is key.
I do know one of the women is an MEP.
And in case anyone wants to make claims about my "agenda" (still waiting for the clarification on that), I don't support terrorism. Stating facts doesn't make me a terrorist sympathiser, the same way people were accused in the past.

This business of one's man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter...

Nelson Mandela was (I was told) arrested planting a bomb (haven't googled) but otherwise turned out to be a decent human being, his wife Winnie - not so much. The current government of SA, probably not so much either.

MLK was a peacenik associated with non-violent resistance, perhaps you're confusing him with Malcolm X (slightly more partisan).

Remind me who the suffragettes decapitated, mutilated and raped.

quantumbutterfly · 10/06/2025 10:17

YourOnMute · 10/06/2025 02:06

I can imagine that it's quite frightening.

I'm sure you can imagine it.

SharonEllis · 10/06/2025 10:53

It is so tiresome isn't it @quantumbutterfly

Yes Mandela was involved in a campaign of bombings - but sabotaging infrastructure, not indiscriminate killings of civilians. Some people were involved in some pretty nasty violence - it was a very violent society. There was a peace and reconciliation process to address this. It was painful.

Northern Ireland, politicians on all sides had active terrorist pasts. There was a peace process which addressed this. It was painful.

Some suffragette campaigns were pretty violent - letter bombs etc but hardly a mass terror campaign and they were subjected to horrific violence.

MLK - nonviolent.

Its so lazy to equate the behaviour of Hamas over the years with figures like these, especially after 7 October.

NotABottie · 10/06/2025 10:54

GretaGreen · 10/06/2025 10:09

And this is why I feel it is unfair for mumsnet to put the onus on the posters here to challenge misinformation. Either you let the misinformation stay or you are subjected to this.

As I said if you want to accuse me of lying, first go watch the uncensored footage of the Hamas attacks filmed by themselves which includes what I said.

Extremely deceptive that you would continue to accuse me of ‘misinformation’ without having done so.

Can you confirm that you have watched it?

I stand by my point, Hamas has been bolstered by their supporters, without support they wouldn’t still be fighting and Palestinians dying. No true supporter of the Palestinian people would defend Hamas which has admitted it is sacrificing them,

How can you logically NOT be supporting Hamas if you accuse Israel of lying about atrocities they claim Hamas carried out?

Make it make sense.

HellsBalls · 10/06/2025 11:00

Martymcfly24 · 10/06/2025 10:02

Pity their intelligence wasn't good enough to actually find Hamas operatives instead of just carpet bombing refugee tents.

Please come up with some evidence for the carpet bombing of tents.

NotABottie · 10/06/2025 11:07

SharonEllis · 10/06/2025 10:53

It is so tiresome isn't it @quantumbutterfly

Yes Mandela was involved in a campaign of bombings - but sabotaging infrastructure, not indiscriminate killings of civilians. Some people were involved in some pretty nasty violence - it was a very violent society. There was a peace and reconciliation process to address this. It was painful.

Northern Ireland, politicians on all sides had active terrorist pasts. There was a peace process which addressed this. It was painful.

Some suffragette campaigns were pretty violent - letter bombs etc but hardly a mass terror campaign and they were subjected to horrific violence.

MLK - nonviolent.

Its so lazy to equate the behaviour of Hamas over the years with figures like these, especially after 7 October.

Edited

Like Greta and her activist mates, I imagine most if not all, refused to watch or have never bothered to watch the video of Hamas atrocities. They shy away as it MIGHT just make them have to rethink their narrative about Israel. It’s also enough to make you vomit but I don’t think that’s the refuseniks main concern.

They also won’t fully take in that there were women and children there, most of the participants you wouldn’t be able to separate from civilians as they were civilians, there were victims from the Kibbutzim that had worked with the Palestinians who killed them or at least gave their killers details of their location and security details, how the bodies of the dead were attacked and desecrated, kicked and beaten, heads chopped off and held up (and put for sale).

Depravity on a level it’s hard to imagine without seeing it which is why it’s important to watch it if you want to give an opinion on why Israel will not end the war until the hostages are returned and Hamas is gone.

Quite rightly.

izthiszeend · 10/06/2025 11:07

dairydebris · 10/06/2025 10:00

This is unhinged.

Obviously Greta et al were removed from the situation for their own safety. They were attempting to sail into a war zone!

You can't honestly think Israel removed them because they were 'too threatening'?

Personally I think its achieved the opposite of what they clearly wanted- it's been great PR for Israel. Peacefully collecting their ridiculous boat, giving them sandwiches, packing them safely off home.

The only thing that's been drawn attention to is their own publicity seeking.

Unhinged?

you like what Israel is doing, so you think all they do looks good.

if it’s a war, then it’s not Israel’s call to prevent them from coming to Gaza.
however, if Israel is an occupier, then the wellbeing of all civilians in Gaza is indeed their responsibility, so starvation of Gaza is on them.

SharonEllis · 10/06/2025 11:11

izthiszeend · 10/06/2025 11:07

Unhinged?

you like what Israel is doing, so you think all they do looks good.

if it’s a war, then it’s not Israel’s call to prevent them from coming to Gaza.
however, if Israel is an occupier, then the wellbeing of all civilians in Gaza is indeed their responsibility, so starvation of Gaza is on them.

A nice example of an unbalanced interpretation of what is happening. What you might call an 'anti-Israel post' for those that argue people on here are not anti-Israel.

NotABottie · 10/06/2025 11:11

izthiszeend · 10/06/2025 11:07

Unhinged?

you like what Israel is doing, so you think all they do looks good.

if it’s a war, then it’s not Israel’s call to prevent them from coming to Gaza.
however, if Israel is an occupier, then the wellbeing of all civilians in Gaza is indeed their responsibility, so starvation of Gaza is on them.

What starvation?

Clear evidence please.

There must surely be video of starving people in Gaza by now.

NotABottie · 10/06/2025 11:19

Also with regard to Dawn French, I wonder if she’d have dismissed Oct 7th as a ‘bad thing’ if she’d watched the videos?

How anyone can postulate about Israel without seeing for themselves what they’re dealing with, I don’t know.

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 10/06/2025 11:21

izthiszeend · 10/06/2025 09:53

Yeah, some minor celebrity did a PR stunt in a small boat.

Yet even that was too threatening for Israel to let them in. You think their selfies in Gaza would look bad? Why’s that?

It also draws attention to the inaction, or rather, complicity of our own European governments. Anyone expressed their condemnation of the piracy in the international waters? Exactly. We here this silence loud and clear.

The precedent of a ship sailing through Israeli waters would create issues though. Surely you can see that. This time, a bunch of ill informed self promoters with 3tins of baby milk, next time some more organised group carrying supplies for Hamas. It really doesn’t take a lot of brain power

izthiszeend · 10/06/2025 11:23

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 10/06/2025 11:21

The precedent of a ship sailing through Israeli waters would create issues though. Surely you can see that. This time, a bunch of ill informed self promoters with 3tins of baby milk, next time some more organised group carrying supplies for Hamas. It really doesn’t take a lot of brain power

Israeli waters???

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread