Heartbreaking news report from Gaza - Dr receives bodies of her children

[Applenation]

Many of you will already have read about this. Paediatric specialist Dr Alaa al-Najjar was on duty when the bodies of nine of her 10 children were received by her in the hospital, after a strike in Khan Younis hit her home.

This report just stopped me in my tracks. I don't know what to say beyond this. I cannot stop thinking about this poor woman tonight.

er children killed by a strike in Khan Younis. Guardian link

1. I do not support ethnic cleansing. 2. I think that any society has the capacity to commit atrocities including Israel, but I do not believe it is doing so. The longer this war goes on, the worse things get so I hope it ends. 3. But I also think that a lot of the attention and narrative around Israel - Palestine is driven by prejudice against Jews, and think challenging that is a necessary thing to do regardless.

I find it interesting that you would think that people’s religion is what people object to rather than the circa 20k dead children and 35k adults.

If Ireland dropped bombs on another country and had that body count and people objected I would not think people opposed it because we are catholics or because we are Irish I would know it is because it is murder. When the IRA bombed British cities we saw that as murder and did not support it and when British troops shot dead kids on the streets on bloody Sunday we saw that as murder too - my British partner also condemns both acts.

There are many incredible jewish people oppose the war, are they anti Semitic or prejudice too? I personally am friends with two jewish people who are strongly opposed to Israel’s actions, both wonderful women who do not hate themselves or any other jewish person they just see this as a genocide. I know lots more jewish people who are always sharing their heartbreak at Israel’s actions on social media. Some of Israel’s biggest critics are jewish and many have written books and articles on why it is ethnic cleansing and why it is wrong.

I appreciate your thoughtful response, and you're right that there are many Jewish voices opposed to Israeli policies - some of the most sophisticated criticism comes from Jewish intellectuals and I don't dismiss that. It is also possible for Jews to be antisemites.

But I think you're missing the deeper dynamic here. Jews have historically functioned as the nightmare of the Western imagination - the eternal scapegoat onto which societies project their anxieties and guilt. What we're seeing now is that same psychological mechanism transferred onto Zionism and Israel.

The Soviets were instrumental in reframing anti-Zionism as anti-imperialism during the Cold War, creating the ideological framework that still dominates international discourse today. They successfully transformed the Jewish national liberation movement into the symbol of Western colonialism, despite the historical absurdity of that characterization. And that Soviet propaganda was distributed far and wide in the Muslim world which developed its own antisemitism.

Look at the UN General Assembly voting patterns - Israel has been condemned more times than all other countries combined. More than Syria, which has actually used chemical weapons against civilians. More than Yemen, where Saudi Arabia has created the world's worst humanitarian crisis. More than China, which is running actual concentration camps. This isn't about proportional concern for human rights - it's about Israel serving as the vessel for international guilt and geopolitical positioning.

Israel-Palestine has become the West's passion play - the drama through which people work out their own moral anxieties about colonialism, racism, and power. Palestinian suffering matters not because Palestinians matter to these critics, but because condemning Israel allows people to demonstrate their moral purity while avoiding the harder questions about their own societies' complicity in global suffering.

The tragic irony is that this dynamic actually harms Palestinians by turning their genuine grievances into a proxy war for other people's psychological and political needs. If the international community cared about Palestinian welfare rather than using them as instruments to condemn Israel, we might actually see productive engagement rather than performative outrage. We wouldn't see Palestinians still living in refugees camps in neighbouring Muslim countries, without rights or opportunity for economic prosperity.

I'm not saying every criticism is invalid - I've acknowledged problems with Israeli conduct. But when the same people who ignore Yemen suddenly discover passionate concern for international law when Israel is involved, forgive me for questioning whether this is really about dead children or something deeper.

Honestly I could write similar stuff about the Irish - they had pseudo scientists back in the day conduct studies to say because Irish people have larger than average heads they are more akin to apes. The British monarchs and overseers made comments about the Irish potato famine being population control and forcefully removed food from Ireland at gunpoint leaving the population to starve - the population went from 9million yo 4 million. Our religion was banned, catholics property was seized, our language was banned - Ireland was persecuted for 800 years. Even today among the older generations they will
make jokes using stereotypes of wife beater alcoholics, terrorist, lower intelligence etc… I have been on the receiving end of ignorant comments in the past and once got told to go back to my own country by a charming man. Honestly I can’t complain though as these were isolated incidents and as a whole the majority of people do not behave or think like that.

The thing is we can’t use crimes that were historically committed against us as a carte blanc to do whatever we want or to harm other people. We also can’t judge people by what their ancestors did.

If you look at the links I shared there are testimonials from countless international Doctors claiming they have encountered children targeting and murdered. There are no testimonials from international doctors or Aid workers that refute this or defend Israel. The number of children dying and the number who have been hit by snipers makes this seem deliberate. When you combine this with comments from Israeli government figures when they say they want to occupy Gaza, they say they want to remove the population and some have defended the killing of civilians - words and actions combined Is why the UN and most if the leading aid agencies in the world have declared this genocide. It is not prejudice or bias that leads myself and others to this conclusion it is facts, figures, testimonials, video evidence. Netanyahu and others in the Israeli government will go down in history as war criminals.

I have just seen the Italian government have offered to treat Adam Najjar. The 11 year old sole sibling who survived the terrible bombing of his home.

I hope the Israeli government allow him to leave Gaza for vital treatment that he needs and can't access in Gaza right now.

If you look at the links I shared there are testimonials from countless international Doctors claiming they have encountered children targeting and murdered. There are no testimonials from international doctors or Aid workers that refute this or defend Israel. The number of children dying and the number who have been hit by snipers makes this seem deliberate. When you combine this with comments from Israeli government figures when they say they want to occupy Gaza, they say they want to remove the population and some have defended the killing of civilians - words and actions combined.

I just wanted to highlight this. Yes there is a propaganda war but some of this is the words of Israeli government officials plus multiple children who have obviously been deliberately shot at by quadcopters (i.e. not accidental and not by Hamas). I just don't see how anyone can keep skating past and ignoring this, along with things like the West Bank settlers it paints a clear picture of what is being condoned by the Israeli government.
Yes war is always awful and there are aspects that make it worse because it's such a small and (previously) built up area with Hamas embedded with civilians. But as the war has gone on there have just been so many of these horrific incidents, it's no longer possible to look at in a reasonable way as just being propaganda/manipulation and a few bad apples. It's just not.

They verify the injuries they see and they've seen bombing and drones.
An American doctor testified to the UN today on patients, women and children, killed and injured by sniper fire.

And now I really hope Israel doesn't drag US (and of course, UK would follow like an obedient dog) into war with Iran. Enough war for heavens sake
Pray for peace!

But it is hardly likely that people motivated to volunteer in the Gaza Strip are predisposed or inclined to defend Israel. It is self selection bias.

What actual verified evidence is there of children being shot at by quadcopters? Early in the war, Islamic Jihad misfired a rocket and hit a hospital, and everyone blamed Israel until it became obvious what it was. So I don't just accept things at face value. That doesn't mean that I am saying that these things couldn't happen, but Hamas lies and lies and lies, and even if you think the IDF does the same that does not make me suddenly believe Hamas or people oppressed by Hamas.

And yes, some of the Israeli ministers have said some terrible things. And the settlers have done some terrible things which should have been stopped. But I don't see evidence of this being systematic. Yes, you can point to incidents, some contested and others not e.g. killing of aid workers. But this war has been 600 days long and has been brutally fought in highly populated urban areas. As the war has gone on, recent months have concerned me and I hope it stops. Because I don't want innocent Palestinians to suffer any more like they are. And I am worried about Israeli society. But both sides need to want it. A lot of the escalation recently is trying to put pressure on Hamas to end the war on terms Israel can accept.

I don't know what the outcome of this war will be but all wars do end eventually. My concern about this conflict is the lasting view of Israel and by proxy Jews in general as some I think simply wish Gaza to be the first and last thing that is thought about by people when they are the Israeli flag (and indeed the star of David). The strengthening of anti semtism is a political aim of some in the pro Palestinian lobby and the Hasan conflict has allowed them to bring in a lot of people into this camp or be associated with it. Hamas are certainly going to the loss war and that is a given and their only hope for the survival of themselves and their genocide based ideology is to embed Israel/Jew hate as a legacy.

this is why I worry about press bias and in some even main stream papers a palpable attempt to portray the Israeli state as evil and by extension it's good pluralist society, many of whom are concerned by aspects of the current conflict. The number of posts here for instance decrying the IDF as some sort of homogenous mass of sociopathic murders is simply wrong. The IDF consists of a significant proportion of the young men and women of Israel who are fulfilling a duty of service. To try and demonize an entire army is in my opinion anti Semitic as the aim here is to leave a lasting slur against the current generation of young Jews in that force and by extension the socialising the country. There may have incidents in the heat of battle that do need investigation but that should be done in a fair judicial manner instead of a hate campaign against a country's military.

I also feel that part of the pro Palestinian light's aims is to re educate young people here in the UK about the state of Israel using the Gazan conflict as a gateway discussion into how Israel has always been 'evil' and it was founded by the forced displacement of people with the aim of embedding the anti Semitic idea that Israel is an illegitimate state and as such is the legitimate target of 'resistance' and indeed should be removed as a state. As many have pointed out this is existential for Israelis.

there is also I feel an undercurrent of Palestinians needing revenge for the Hasan conflict and the only way that revenge will manifest itself is a lasting slur against Israel. Even when the conflict ends there will be good for Israeli actors, singers and athletes, demands for arrest warrants for simply being or having been a member of the IDF, graffiti on synagogues, demands for sanctions etc. I really do think we try and look at the legacy of this conflict in terms of our society.

Boos above

https://www.timesofisrael.com/baby-of-pregnant-terror-victim-dies-after-fighting-for-his-life-for-two-weeks/

Also never forget Israelis mourn as well

Innocent babies on both sides of the conflict.

@Biscuitsformeandyou
It doesn’t help when you question the values and ethics of doctors who go and work in war zones.

@mids2019
There will be a lasting legacy for Israel. The country - and only herself - is responsible for it. An own goal maybe?

Perhaps it is about time Israel let in journalists into Gaza if people continue to be worried the reporting is biased and doing them a disservice? Somehow I think it would only be worse for Israel if this were to happen - and that is why they have taken the calculated decision not to.

I feel for IDF soldiers who started the war- probably with a passion - after 7/10, but who have been left with PTSD and growing number of reservists are refusing to fight, with airmen questioning why the bombardment is continuing. Their voices jar with the more pro-Israeli voices on SM defending the war.

Any racism is dreadful, and there will need to be a lot of work to resolve this once the war is over.

However - when and how will it be over? There is the threat of ethnic cleansing of Gaza - which is supported by over 80% of Israelis in a recent poll.

I know this comment is meant as a warning, but things have got so bad that I had to actually think: is this person just saying what we know some members of the Israeli government want, and which may be unstated Israeli government policy.

Even a few weeks ago, what we would have recognized as hyperbolic rhetoric is now to be taken at face value.

Stripes56

There is some internal opposition to the war in Israel and if your read Haaretz you can see a range of anti war voices. Israel is a democracy and I guess on day to day basis Israelis are discussing the current conflict.

Conflict in the middle East seems to be a given at least during my lifetime but I really am concerned about the perpetual demonising of a state which was borne out the horrors of the holocaust.

I don't want a situation where in a year's time Israeli sports people are routinely heckled, their singers and performers threatened, Judaism as a region being used as market for directed hate etc. However I can see this situation arising and it is a goal of Hamas and it's world wide supporters. As I said wars do end including this one (at a time unknown) so we want to avoid a situation where simply being Israeli leads to stigma. This would be anti semitism at its worst and if we reach that place anti semites have won.

The idea of Israel doing it to itself has the undercurrent of victim blaming after October 7th and unfortunately there are many who still think Israel brought October 7th into itself and it was therefore somehow 'deserved'; we need to distance ourselves utterly from such voices.

You make it sound like it is anti-Semitic to recognise that the Palestinians are humans too, with equal rights to life; education; freedom of thought; and just plain old respect.

Maybe I have been too long on MumsNet but the rules if misogyny seem so analogous to the rules that the Israeli government has in relation to Gaza. In this instance it is: The worst thing about male/ Israeli violence is that it makes men/ Israel look bad. The worst thing about 10 children being blown up (with one survivor) is not that it makes Israel look like a monster in the eyes of the world.
Only Israel has the power to end this war, but even if they make using the word genocide a hate crime; starve Gaza and totally destroy it (as per the stated musings of government minister Smotrich), Israel has only itself to blame for being a pariah state.
We all know it would be genocide if the victims were Jewish, when you say it isn’t genocide because they’re Palestinian it’s just part of the dehumanisation that makes genocide acceptable.

@mids2019
I was referring to the repercussions of Israeli actions following 7/10.

Hazretz feels like a breath of fresh air - although some posters have described it as extremely left wing! We will need to see what government Israel elects next and how the country and its judiciary manage the continued annexation of WB and now also Gaza. Again - the legacy is in its own hands.

If course it makes it difficult for Israeli sports people and artists if their country - even after the fighting has ended- continues to follow a path of differential treatment of people.

I guess society never imagined we would never witness events played out like this on SM. It’s like colonisation and history happening in real time.

In a sense your final sentence is my point. People project onto Israel - Palestine their guilt, fears and anxieties. Complicating it massively and helping to keep any type of settlement into the future. If Israelis know that the world sees them as colonists and genocide committers, they conclude that the world hates them and they can't take a risk with their security for any kind of settlement, particularly after October 7. If Palestinians know that they are seen by most as the victims and largely righteous, why make compromises? A person that truly cared about the Palestinians would engage with the moderates on both sides in good faith rather than strengthening the extremes in both socities.

Such nonsense about my points re doctors. Nobody is free from bias, even... dare I say it... you

@mids2019

The idea of Israel doing it to itself has the undercurrent of victim blaming after October 7th

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. The constant attempt to group together very reasonable opposition to what has become a litany of obvious crimes with forms of extremism, victim blaming and antisemitism, has to be a ploy at this point.

Are you seriously suggesting that there should be no accountability for deliberately shooting at children?

That by 'blaming' Israel for this unforced and despicable course of action, we are in fact victim blaming?

This is being reported time and again by medics on the ground in Gaza. And we're supposed to do - what? Just wait for legal action to take place years in the future and until then it's only fair to assume it's not really happening, despite the consistent and credible reports? Of course this will damage Israel's reputation, it would be absurd and a true double standard if it didn't. I'm sorry but Israel has absolutely done that to itself.

It's very sad, but when you allow extremists to run amok in government, in West Bank settlements and by all appearances in the army too, your reputation as a nation is rightly going to nosedive.

Your thoughts that Israel will see itself as a lost cause in the eyes of the international community and therefore continue on its path regardless may have some merit in it. I don’t know- as don’t live in Israel. But the war could have stopped at any point prior to this, it could have been fought in a different way, it could have chosen not to stop aid, but we just see situation worsening.

You can’t then blame the world responding to this. It’s not like Israel is some helpless vassal state.

It would be great if Israel did elect a more moderate government and some constructive talks to happen for the sake of Israel and Palestinians.
Perhaps there are pro-Israeli supporters encouraging this? Surely it shouldn’t be left to those who support Palestine. Arguably- Israelis maybe more influenced by those whose support for them has never wavered?

No - I am sure the doctors may have a bias- towards saving lives- but it doesn’t mean that they are going to lie or exaggerate about what they saw in Gaza, which is what you implied.

Israel is not the victim in this - it was a victim after 7 October but after killing 55k people with circa 20k kids it lost any rights to victimhood. It is like a domestic abuser after murdering his wife saying but my wife slapped me first - it is a pure DARVO tactic, reverse victim and offender. No one on this thread has said anything remotely anti semitic that I have seen - some of the loudest voices against Israel are jewish - this is not about religion it is about ethnic cleansing, it is about the murder of children.

Before we get side tracked again just look at the testimonials, look at the video evidence - children executed by Israeli snipers on a daily basis. Kill shots to the head and chest, tiny toddlers and babies dead. Children testifying that after surviving a bomb that quadcopters, operated by the IDF, came and hovered over them before shooting them. This is not one or two rogue IDF members this is on a daily basis. The circa 20,000 dead children is indisputable proof! Of course this tarnishes Israeli’s reputation, mass murder leaves a stain.

October the 7th can be equated to a wide slapping her husband? Ah well.