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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Can someone explain Islamophobia to me?

729 replies

BaMamma · 22/02/2025 19:33

I don't think I have an irrational fear of Muslims, but I think I have a reasonable concern about radical Islam, does that make me Islamophobic?

OP posts:
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Original poster
BaMamma · 23/02/2025 06:32

OchaLove · 23/02/2025 06:12

I am familiar with the concept and find it strange because someone can convert to Judaism later in life without being ethnically Jewish. But somehow being Jewish is considered at the same level as ethnicity when there are obviously different ethnicities who are Jewish. Also, obviously some Jews must have converted to Christianity as early Christians and they are not considered as Jewish so logically it must be okay not to be Jewish if you change your religion but today it is not, which is a contradiction.

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I don’t make the rules. I thought you knew some history? In Nazi Germany, having a Jewish grandparent condemned you as a Jew.

edited to correct naxi to nazi

OP posts:
Original poster
BaMamma · 23/02/2025 06:39

OchaLove · 23/02/2025 06:18

Isn't this explanation clear? "I know it is only Hasidic Judaism and there are many moderate Jewish people who are religious, and some who are only culturally Jewish. Same in Islam, some are strict and oppressive, some are moderated, some are only culturally Muslim."

If your argument is claiming that only Islam forces women to cover themselves up, my counterargument is that Hasidic Judaism has similar compulsory dress codes on women. If a woman is born to a Hasidic Jewish family, I don't think she has much choice but abide by the rules or becomes an outsider.

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Are you hard of reading?

Many religions oppress women with strict dress codes.

Only one that I’m aware of has a sect that forces them to cover themselves entirely.

So what’s your point?

OP posts:
LillyPJ · 23/02/2025 07:05

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/02/2025 23:45

Having read your posts so far @BaMamma , I think you are Islamophobic as you come across as hostile and prejudiced towards Muslims.

You have said I don't see <<insert positive Muslim things>> a number of times. No offence, but that's on you. You want to know how Islam is a force for good? Look it up. It's a massive, global religion with over a billion followers. It must be getting something right.

As for the nonsense that criticism of the Taliban is Islamophobic. Seriously? Right thinking people all over the world find what is happening to women in Afganistan abhorrent. Including millions of Muslims. Even millions of Muslims in Afganistan.

Being a 'massive global religion' with loads of followers doesn't mean it's doing something right. Like most major religions, it just means that (mostly) men have used their power and made up stories to get control. Look at how some religions make people believe they are sinful, shameful, inadequate etc. and need to pray, ask for forgiveness, cover their bodies or give money to a church. It's appalling that people fall for it.

Alphavilla · 23/02/2025 07:21

Women only.cover themselves through choice due to indoctrination. They think hiding under a sheet brings them closer to god because that’s what they have been told since they were born. That’s not real choice. Why don’t men wear the burqa? Why do women cover their hair and ankles and men do not? The reason is nothing to do with god. It’s a method introduced for men to prevent other men gazing at their womenfolk who are effectively chattels. Men cannot be trusted to control themselves so women have to suffer the consequences. Sound familiar? Is women’s hair that much of a turn on? Are women’s ankles that much of a turn on? And men’s are not? Modest dressing is through choice only when it is not a requirement.It is oppression of women pure and simple in the guise of some godly act and sadly women still refuse to let the scales drop from their eyes. What women wear should of course be.free for all women to choose whatever religion but Islam does appear to be the front runner in hiding their ladies under sheets and off the streets.

SallyWD · 23/02/2025 08:04

Alphavilla · 23/02/2025 07:21

Women only.cover themselves through choice due to indoctrination. They think hiding under a sheet brings them closer to god because that’s what they have been told since they were born. That’s not real choice. Why don’t men wear the burqa? Why do women cover their hair and ankles and men do not? The reason is nothing to do with god. It’s a method introduced for men to prevent other men gazing at their womenfolk who are effectively chattels. Men cannot be trusted to control themselves so women have to suffer the consequences. Sound familiar? Is women’s hair that much of a turn on? Are women’s ankles that much of a turn on? And men’s are not? Modest dressing is through choice only when it is not a requirement.It is oppression of women pure and simple in the guise of some godly act and sadly women still refuse to let the scales drop from their eyes. What women wear should of course be.free for all women to choose whatever religion but Islam does appear to be the front runner in hiding their ladies under sheets and off the streets.

You can say the same about Western women. Western women only wear revealing clothes through choice because they've been indoctrinated. They think wearing sexy clothes makes them more desirable, more attractive. They think it's a choice but really these choices are made through the prism of patriarchy. Why is it that only teenage girls wear tiny and revealing school skirts that sometimes barely cover their bums, whilst teenage boys remain covered? Why do some women on a night out wear clothes that are so overtly sexual, exposing much of their bodies, whilst men wear full length trousers and shirts? Why do women spend so much money on make up, on cosmetic surgery and beauty treatment compared to men? Compare women's hair with men's hair, the variety of styles for women, the amount of time and money spent in women's hair compared to mens - Why is there such an emphasis on women's hair in this society compared to men's hair? Why is women's hair such an integral part of their attractiveness compared to men's hair?
We think we have freedom and choice in this country but really we're slaves to the patriarchy. Women feel the pressure to look young, beautiful, sexually attractive in a way that men don't. Women's worth is often determined by their youth and beauty in this country. It's all about the male gaze.

smooththecat · 23/02/2025 08:08

BaMamma · 23/02/2025 04:23

Selective quotes are a great way to discredit a person’s intent.

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OP has an agenda here and the technique is to ask a seemingly innocent question in order to perform ignorance and draw others in where they’ll then push that agenda. It’s not in good faith. I don’t need quotes, it’s plain.

I can see exactly what you’re doing.

RainingRoses · 23/02/2025 08:15

smooththecat · 23/02/2025 08:08

OP has an agenda here and the technique is to ask a seemingly innocent question in order to perform ignorance and draw others in where they’ll then push that agenda. It’s not in good faith. I don’t need quotes, it’s plain.

I can see exactly what you’re doing.

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Agreed. Hence why I knew right away who the OP would be. She did it under a previous username and now this. The faux naivety around questions shines through and instead her agenda is clear.

smooththecat · 23/02/2025 08:16

smooththecat · 22/02/2025 22:39

Just to say, without wanting to cast doubt on any individual poster here, who I’m sure are in earnest, there have been a load of innocent-seeming threads seeking to relativise hatred and mumsnet do not seem to have a handle on it at all. Examples: ‘I don’t know what right-wing means’, ‘Is Elon Musk doing a nazi salute?’ Etc. It’s a well-known tactic for the online influence operations that we know exist, they try to plant doubt where it doesn’t really exist.

And while I wouldn’t want to prevent anyone’s speech or stymie discussion (though it’s a common misconception that we have the same right to free speech in the UK that Americans have, not the case), online forums are vulnerable. Take what you read online with a pinch of salt. At least with newspapers and traditional media, we knew who owns them and what their positions are.

It’s apt to repost this.

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 08:18

smooththecat · 23/02/2025 08:08

OP has an agenda here and the technique is to ask a seemingly innocent question in order to perform ignorance and draw others in where they’ll then push that agenda. It’s not in good faith. I don’t need quotes, it’s plain.

I can see exactly what you’re doing.

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We literally have MPs advocating for blasphemy laws and cousin marriage in Parliament. Discussion of Islam and its effects is completely valid.

SallyWD · 23/02/2025 08:21

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 08:18

We literally have MPs advocating for blasphemy laws and cousin marriage in Parliament. Discussion of Islam and its effects is completely valid.

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Cousin marriage has been legal in this country for a very long time. The law is nothing to do with Muslims. I know two white British first cousins who got married.

smooththecat · 23/02/2025 08:25

SallyWD · 23/02/2025 08:21

Cousin marriage has been legal in this country for a very long time. The law is nothing to do with Muslims. I know two white British first cousins who got married.

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The royal families of Europe were pretty keen on it.

peanutbuttertoasty · 23/02/2025 08:41

I don’t think you’ll see opposition to banning cousin marriage coming from indigenous communities. It’s not common practice in those quarters. Seems to be something of a legacy law and should definitely be changed.

Alphavilla · 23/02/2025 08:43

SallyWD · 23/02/2025 08:04

You can say the same about Western women. Western women only wear revealing clothes through choice because they've been indoctrinated. They think wearing sexy clothes makes them more desirable, more attractive. They think it's a choice but really these choices are made through the prism of patriarchy. Why is it that only teenage girls wear tiny and revealing school skirts that sometimes barely cover their bums, whilst teenage boys remain covered? Why do some women on a night out wear clothes that are so overtly sexual, exposing much of their bodies, whilst men wear full length trousers and shirts? Why do women spend so much money on make up, on cosmetic surgery and beauty treatment compared to men? Compare women's hair with men's hair, the variety of styles for women, the amount of time and money spent in women's hair compared to mens - Why is there such an emphasis on women's hair in this society compared to men's hair? Why is women's hair such an integral part of their attractiveness compared to men's hair?
We think we have freedom and choice in this country but really we're slaves to the patriarchy. Women feel the pressure to look young, beautiful, sexually attractive in a way that men don't. Women's worth is often determined by their youth and beauty in this country. It's all about the male gaze.

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I completely agree. False eyelashes and fake tits are no better for women than sheets with slits. Surely we can do better than this and break free?

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 08:43

smooththecat · 23/02/2025 08:25

The royal families of Europe were pretty keen on it.

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Oh come onnn. This is like when people compare IS with the Crusades.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g38l07895o.amp

According to a 2021 study, about 55% of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins, while the practice accounts for about 3% of all marriages nationally.

OchaLove · 23/02/2025 08:46

smooththecat · 23/02/2025 08:08

OP has an agenda here and the technique is to ask a seemingly innocent question in order to perform ignorance and draw others in where they’ll then push that agenda. It’s not in good faith. I don’t need quotes, it’s plain.

I can see exactly what you’re doing.

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I second this.

OpheliaWasntMad · 23/02/2025 08:46

Alphavilla · 23/02/2025 08:43

I completely agree. False eyelashes and fake tits are no better for women than sheets with slits. Surely we can do better than this and break free?

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I agree - the extremes of both cultures are harmful to women.

OpheliaWasntMad · 23/02/2025 08:49

OchaLove · 23/02/2025 08:46

I second this.

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I haven’t read the whole thread but I am not sure this thread is helpful. There are many types of Muslims, Christians, Jews etc
The extremists in all categories are dangerous

peanutbuttertoasty · 23/02/2025 08:49

OpheliaWasntMad · 23/02/2025 08:46

I agree - the extremes of both cultures are harmful to women.

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Another false equivalence. Nobody is getting stoned to death (or similar) for not getting fake tits. Our culture does not have extremes in the same way. Perhaps 600 years ago but we managed to evolve from the dark ages.

peanutbuttertoasty · 23/02/2025 08:50

OpheliaWasntMad · 23/02/2025 08:49

I haven’t read the whole thread but I am not sure this thread is helpful. There are many types of Muslims, Christians, Jews etc
The extremists in all categories are dangerous

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Again, nope. I have zero fear of an extreme Jehovah’s Witness bombing me on the bus or stabbing my child in the street. Try again.

OpheliaWasntMad · 23/02/2025 08:51

peanutbuttertoasty · 23/02/2025 08:49

Another false equivalence. Nobody is getting stoned to death (or similar) for not getting fake tits. Our culture does not have extremes in the same way. Perhaps 600 years ago but we managed to evolve from the dark ages.

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I was talking about this country/ comparing clothes / not comparing different countries punishment for “crimes”

OpheliaWasntMad · 23/02/2025 08:52

peanutbuttertoasty · 23/02/2025 08:50

Again, nope. I have zero fear of an extreme Jehovah’s Witness bombing me on the bus or stabbing my child in the street. Try again.

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I don’t believe you are posting in good faith.
You just want to rant about “all Muslims. “

peanutbuttertoasty · 23/02/2025 08:55

Any valid concerns about Islam get deflected into ah but all religions have the same problems with extreme violence etc. No, they don’t. Comparing burqas to fake tits for instance is absurd.

Alphavilla · 23/02/2025 08:56

The point being I suppose is that women’s modesty is based in Islam but taken to the ridiculous extreme in some cultures. Whereas western pressure for women to be sexy and beautiful is not coming from any particular religious belief, but directly from another patriarchal culture.

OpheliaWasntMad · 23/02/2025 08:57

I do believe Muslims have a problem with radical Islamists . It would be better to support those Muslims who are trying to defeat the extremism in their midst than simply attack “all Muslims “.
If you do that you are ( ironically) helping the extremists.

peanutbuttertoasty · 23/02/2025 09:00

There are some bizarre stereotypes in the other direction on this thread too. Like we’re all walking round with our tits out. I feel no pressure to be sexy and have my body on show. Like most women I’m in jeans and a jumper. Comments on this thread are dripping with disgust at western women. Is there a phobia word for that? Or does it only apply in one direction?