Can someone explain Islamophobia to me?

[BaMamma]

I don't think I have an irrational fear of Muslims, but I think I have a reasonable concern about radical Islam, does that make me Islamophobic?

Oh come off it, in those photos you can see the women's facial expression right. It hardly compares to a full facial covering.

I did not say I am Christian or that I condone any attacks on anyone in the name of any religion. I think religion was invented by men for men in an age when people couldn’t get their head around why there is life on earth, fear of death and for some sort of control in society before the rule of law was invented. Since we have learned from science and we are no longer ignorant Neanderthals it is astounding that in the 21st century anyone with any sense still buys into outdated religious practices. Except that it is still a useful tool for keeping women subjugated and an excuse for violence. The sooner all religions are ditched the better imo.

Yes, looking at the prosecutions data of perpetrators and the video footage of rousing speeches by ringleaders, it’s largely Christians attacking Muslims and Jews.

And yes, we have traditional clothing that is associated with being a Christian. Such as what nuns, monks, and priests wear. When I mentioned Christian clothing, I did list nuns, monks and priests as examples, but ofc it’s tactic to quote out of context to ridicule.

Those pesky monks.

Have only just seen this thread. Once I saw the topic it was in and I knew exactly who the OP would be, and I was right.

Judging by OP’s many other posts on this topic, it’s obvious this was never intended to be an innocent thread.

Come off what? You’re the one that said it is “quite difficult to strike up a conversion with a woman when you can’t make eye contact.”

Bet you’d have no problem striking up a conversation with a woman by the pool in a bikini and sunglasses.

It’s not lack of eye contact that makes it difficult, is it? Seems a silly excuse to be exclusionary and standoffish. Even the most austere burqas have mesh over the eyes so you can make eye contact.

Women are not responsible for men's actions. Regardless of what they wear.

Well, I’ve heard the Southport rioters described as many things, but a Christian mob is not one of them.

The rioters were organised along racial lines, not religious denomination, as well you know.

Most white Brits aren’t arsed with religion.

I think there are enough problems caused by religion currently, so no need to drag Christians into a situation that has absolutely nothing to do with them.

Yes you are right - it's not primarily the eye covering that's the issue it's the face covering. I've lived in India, Malaysia and currently Australia. And yes it is common to strike up conversation with women from a range of cultures in a range of clothing when you can actually see their face. When you are both getting a coffee at the same time in the work kitchen, getting food from the same buffet, sitting ext to each other at the pool laughing at the same silly group of kids. Normal day to day interactions. Full face covering, apart from a slit over the eyes is isolating. I really don't know how anyone can deny that?
And what other religion enforces this kind of isolating wear on women?

I don't know, it's like nailing jelly to the wall trying to discuss anything with some people.
I say I have a reasonable concern about radical Islam; posters tell me, 'Not all Muslims'.
I'm asked for a specific example, I say burqa and other full face and body coverings; posters tell me 'Not all Muslims', but also that those that do are choosing to do so, and why am I so obsessed with clothing?
I say I'm concerned about women being oppressed by clothing restrictions in Iran, Afghanistan and so forth; posters tell me there are no such restrictions in Britain.

So, I'm none the wiser, but I still don't think it's Islamophobic to be concerned about radical Islam, both in the countries where it is enforced, and its effect on world politics.

Exactly. ‘Can anyone explain Islamophobia to me?’ Numerous people give the definition, irrational fear and hatred of Muslims etc. Oh but it’s like nailing jelly to the wall trying to discuss this with you.

No, it’s exceedingly simple. Does not need a whole thread.

"a Muslim woman cannot choose not to wear a head covering can she? It’s not really a choice."

In Islam, it must be a choice for women to choose to cover their heads, it should not be forced. There are also different sects of Islam, my background is Sunni-Hanafi which allows many regulations up to personal interpretation. Because of that there are many scholars of Sunni-Hanafi (at least in Turkey) who argue that women are not required to cover their heads unless they are praying (Salah/Namaaz).

If you really have a fear of UK turning into an officially Islamic country, you should oppose to oppression, invasion of those Islamic countries and start advocating to treat their populations as equals in terms of foreign relations. Then you will get less mass migration from these populations. Believe me, most regular people want to stay in their own countries rather than migrating and adjusting to another culture/country.

Someone above was asking if women were free to choose to wear veil in Afghanistan and Iran. First of all, in Iran they don't wear veil, they are forced to cover their heads. And there is huge correlation between foreign invasions of these countries and radicals taking over. Thus my point in above paragraph.

Selective quotes are a great way to discredit a person’s intent.

Direct question, is it Islamophobic to question aspects of Islam as imposed in certain areas?

I would say niqab and burka are more cultural than religious. As I said above, I'm from Muslim background but I had to google to see what they look like.

Also, from experience I would like to bring another aspect to this argument. For instance, in Turkey for many years women who covered their heads were banned from universities, government offices etc. On the other hand, men who might have more radical religious views were free to attend these universities and government offices. So in some way, preventing women from social life based on dress codes causes more oppression of women.

Also, I agree covering faces poses risks in many cases, such as somebody else can attend to an exam on behalf of another if face is covered. I think there must be regulations not to allow face coverings where checking identity is necessary (like airport security check or the exam example). On other areas, such as shopping etc., I'm not sure because I can see how it can be violation of personal freedom versus creating security/identity risks.

I also agree with @BaMamma that forcing little girls to cover up their heads should be considered as child abuse. From a religious perspective, they are not at an age to choose to freely anyway.

Not sure who are you asking but in my opinion no, it shouldn't be associated with any kind of phobia to question any religion. I believe healthy progress and consensus come from genuine curiosity and non-manipulative questioning.

Don't Hasidic Jewish women cover themselves up as well? I have a Jewish friend who is more on the liberal side and her daughter became really religious and married a rabbi. My friend was complaining to me that she had to wear long sleeves when she was visiting them in the heat of the summer. It is also forbidden in Hasidic Judaism for women not to cover their hair so most of them wear wigs and they dress very conservatively. They are also forbidden from working so their role is basically to have babies and raise them, very patriarchal. I know it is only Hasidic Judaism and there are many moderate Jewish people who are religious, and some who are only culturally Jewish. Same in Islam, some are strict and oppressive, some are moderated, some are only culturally Muslim.

To your last point, no, it’s not the same. You can stop being Muslim, but you can’t stop being Jewish. There are atheist Jews, and agnostics, you don’t have to observe any practice to be Jewish.

@OchaLove many religions oppress women with strict dress codes. Only one that I’m aware of has a sect that forces them to cover themselves entirely. So what’s your point?

I think I made my point above. Do you have a specific question?

Yes. What is your point?

I am familiar with the concept and find it strange because someone can convert to Judaism later in life without being ethnically Jewish. But somehow being Jewish is considered at the same level as ethnicity when there are obviously different ethnicities who are Jewish. Also, obviously some Jews must have converted to Christianity as early Christians and they are not considered as Jewish so logically it must be okay not to be Jewish if you change your religion but today it is not, which is a contradiction.

Isn't this explanation clear? "I know it is only Hasidic Judaism and there are many moderate Jewish people who are religious, and some who are only culturally Jewish. Same in Islam, some are strict and oppressive, some are moderated, some are only culturally Muslim."

If your argument is claiming that only Islam forces women to cover themselves up, my counterargument is that Hasidic Judaism has similar compulsory dress codes on women. If a woman is born to a Hasidic Jewish family, I don't think she has much choice but abide by the rules or becomes an outsider.