Why do you support Palestine?

[Wildflowers99]

After the horrific kidnapping of the Bibas family and the horrific murder of the mother and her two small children, the time has come to ask British supporters of Palestine why.

A significant number of Palestinians want Sharia law. This is not a conflict of politics to them - it’s a conflict of religion. Therefore, it’s simply a case of Islam must dominate no matter what. 4 in 10 support the attacks in October 2023, which was the mass rape, torture and murder of Israelis using the most psychopathic methods imaginable - not to mention the kidnappings.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/11/amid-the-ceasefire-wrangling-how-popular-is-hamas-in-gaza-now

While I am devastated by the killing of Gazan children in air strikes, and have always supported a ceasefire, I cannot support any advancing of the Palestinian state because I do not want to further a state with views such as those above.

So, please can I ask why you support Palestine as a state? I find it painful watching people blindly marching and demanding support for a state who are opposed to everything they stand for.

How many people were killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya? Neocon policies which are always pro-Israel are responsible from millions of deaths. In a way, crusades have never stopped. These policies create radicalism in these areas, as you call 'radical Islam'.

Your posts just screams ignorance. Wanting two state solution is neither the same as supporting Hamas or pushing Sharia. In fact, many believe it’s the contrary. See countries who have recognised Palestine as a state and read about their reasoning ie Ireland, Norway.

And what about Jordan?
Would it not be logic that the Palestine State is similar to Jordan? At the end of the day, Jordan's population has quite a lot of Palestinians indeed. The West Bank has been annexed to Jordan in the past.
Jordan is not a danger to Israel. And it has not made it to the news for women's rights abuse.

I am very sympathetic to Palestinians - particularly because they are being governed by a murderous bunch of psychopaths who have deliberately put their citizens in harms way.

Aren't you referring to long extinguished events when you say that the Jewish homeland needs to be in Palestine rather than Europe because Jerusalem?

Are Jews long extinguished like the Ottoman Empire?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/middle-east/jordan/report-jordan/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/middle-east/israel-and-the-occupied-palestinian-territory/

If you want people to read Amnesty reports, everyone should have a read of this too.

With a fair number of liberal people emigrating even prior 7/10 due the judicial reforms proposed by Netanyahu’s government. Now that 7/10 has happened and the country seems more right wing than before, I imagine that truly liberal Israelis are in an uncomfortable position for a variety of reasons.

“Secular Israelis who prioritise living in a liberal democracy are a shrinking portion of Israel’s population, said Uri Ram, professor of sociology and anthropology at Ben Gurion University of the Negev.”

“It is hard to evaluate the scale of departures so far. In 2023, during the prewar domestic turmoil over Netanyahu’s judicial reforms, there was a net departure from Israel of between 30,000 and 40,000 people, the newspaper Haaretz reported.”

www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/06/as-war-and-religion-rages-israels-secular-elite-contemplate-a-silent-departure

The original Jewish kingdoms were long extinguished at the point that modern day Israel was created, yes. So are you arguing that events that happened a long time ago are pertinent today or not? Or are you going to pick and choose as you do with your other arguments.

Well there’s no point arguing that a Palestinian state would be more akin to the Ottoman Empire than it would comparable Islamic countries which exist here and today is there? The Ottoman Empire would only be relevant if it was our only frame of reference for Sharia countries, which it isn’t.

Starving children is a gratuitous way to kill them? There are multiple news sources citing concerns about Israeli blockade having hampered delivery of essential goods such as baby formula going into Gaza. In fact- the ICC’s independent panel of lawyers was sure enough that lack of access to food in Gaza due to Israeli action was an alleged war crime worth pursuing in court.

This article suggest babies did die due to restrictions by Israelis and no, the US also said that there was no evidence aid was being stolen by Hamas.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/04/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-starvation-icc.html

But it is not on the same level as Afghanistan or anything like that and they are not a threat to Israel.
No country is perfect.
And Jordan is perfectly liveable and modernising itself.
In Jordan, women can study, go to Uni, own property and buildings, work and drive, for example.
We, ourselves, do not score that well on other cultures and religions standards either.

@Wildflowers99 you ask people why they support Palestine. What does not supporting Palestine look like? Leaving Gaza as a festering sore? Forcibly relocating the population? Supporting settlers in the West Bank to eventually control the area? You seem to see supporting Israel and supporter Palestinians as diametrically opposed but surely supporting Palestinians, which does not mean supporting Hamas, is in everyone’s best interests unless you put the demand for a greater Israel above any hope of long term security.

We can’t assume they will simply morph into a version of Jordan. They now have a long backdrop of grievances against the West - do you think they will just let this lie, coupled with the culture of theocracy and ‘holy war’ they believe in? Do you think they’re really capable of living peacefully and never again attacking their Israeli neighbours? Do you think Hamas (or whatever political wing they ‘democratically elect’ as their leader) would create a fair society?

I’m always happy for potential crimes to be investigated and at no point have I defended Netanyahu’s tactics, so you’re barking up the wrong tree here. I think he should answer to the ICC, and a thorough investigation into his actions carried out.

That said, despite severe food shortages for 2 years now, the entirety of Hamas that showed up to the hostage release looked like they could go 80 minutes on a rugby field. Every single one was very well fed, not a pound too slim. Nor were any of the watching/cheering crowds. I’m surprised as I was sure the whole population was suffering some degree of starvation.

Let me reverse the question. If you were Netanyahu, how would you have reacted to 07/10?

I think it is as likely as your assumptions.
Both our assumptions are equally valid.
Only the Palestinians can decide what their country will be like.
There will be the need for an interim, very controlled, state. I think Palestine cannot be formed today, straight from this situation. They need some time in peace to find who they want to be. The PLO, with the help of neighbouring countries, like Jordan, can take the interim role. Till they are ready for elections.
And which are these grievances against the West? I can give plenty of examples where the civilians in the West have shown care for the Palestinians. The large involvement in marches, the display of flags, the large ammount of debates, the University professor who had to be compensated by UK government, the lady who went through a grinding questionning with the Labour party after voting pro a ceasefire (the amount of grieve westeners got for wishing for a ceasefire is quite out of this world!), the WCK aid workers who got killed for delivering the first load of aid by ship into Gaza, plus the many healthcare and aid workers sent. Also, the UN resolutions, though they are slow, they are crystal clear.
I am not to allow fear to get in the way of fairness. It is nothing but fair that Palestine exists as a fully independant State whose people can decide how to govern. After a period of interim peace and re-building and without Hamas.

But, I also think Israel needs to get rid of the Likud party and no-one has yet even mentioned if there will be any elections shortly. Because Israel will need a peace loving much more moderate government to reach peace. Netanyahu's cabinet cannot and will not. That is clear to me

So you accept that the Israeli give could have committed war crimes that included starvation of children.
Is starvation a more acceptable way to die than strangulation? It is you who introduced the idea of comparing the brutality of how each side has acted towards children.

And which are these grievances against the West? I can give plenty of examples where the civilians in the West have shown care for the Palestinians. The large involvement in marches, the display of flags, the large ammount of debates, the University professor who had to be compensated by UK government, the lady who went through a grinding questionning with the Labour party after voting pro a ceasefire

The grievance that it was the West who arranged for them to be displaced post WW2 to start with?

They won’t care less about the latter. Their ideology is purely theocratic. You seem to have a really hard time that non-Westerners don’t have to think as Westerners do. Plenty of Israelis have demonstrated against their government’s actions but it hasn’t stopped them brutalising Israelis has it?

An awful lot of wishful thinking going on. These are people who strangled toddlers and cut women’s breasts off as they raped them. They won’t feel gratitude for a few mindless left wingers marching on their behalf, if anything they’re probably faintly amused by it.

I have noticed that Hamas is well kept and the civilians around them, who could be their own families, maybe? are not looking bad. No surprised there. The guys high up in their ranks were sleeping comfortably in their beds and waiking up to breakfast in Qatar, while their people went through daily hell.
But we have also seen plenty of civilians in their every day life, plus the place they are left to live in.
And, sadly and very disappointly, we have seen lorries full of aid destroyed by Israelis, groups of people blocking routes for aid deliveries. UK government has publically stated that Israel was blocking aid, that there was not enough food in Gaza, that starvation was happening, that they had not enough fuel. There is no doubt this happened.
Could Hamas have fed and treated the hostages better? I think it is likely but some of them kept with the bigger guys, yes. I wish for them a quick recovery from the hell they have gone through.

Again wildflower, what is fair and leading to peace, once and for all, it is to have a two state solution.
Fear will not change my mind.
I have not imposed my thinking on anyone, by the way. You asked for opinions, if you do not want them, why asking? I say they have the right to decide what they want to do with their lives and government. How is that assuming they think like a westerner?

That’s not the reverse of the question at all. It’s a completely different one. And certainly doesn’t answer my question to you.
But since you ask I would never have supported Hamas’s rise to power in the first place ( or derailed the Oslo accords) and would have reaponded with limited targeted attacks/ assassination of Hamas leaders, efforts to cut off hamas’s money from international businesses and working with the international community to create leverage to separate the Palestinian people from Hamas and put political solutions on the table. Also negotiate for the return of the hostages obviously. In the meantime I would address security gaps to protect the Israeli people from further attacks. While they shouldn’t have to, I fully recognize that Hamas would remain a danger and my plan is not a short term fix. There were shocking breaches of security that enabled the attacks to be as deadly as they were - with the money and resources they have this should never have happened. My suggestions are very much long term and I realize they are nebulous, but Netanyahu’s haven’t done anything except temporarily weaken the threat - all that death and destruction and Hamas is still there and probably recruiting from a brutalized population that sees no future.

Fear will not change my mind.

Well no because right now you live in a liberal, progressive society and are happily protected by the British army. Very easy to ‘not be ruled by fear’ when there’s no direct threat to you at this second.

You have all the right to be terrified indeed, if you are in the area.

But, what is the other option?
You have not brought one forward, because there is not one.
US and arab nations are debating (with Israel involvement), as we speak, the formation of a Palestine State nursed by the arab nations themselves, for the peace in the whole area. In my opinion, it is the only option.
Look at Germany and Japan today. They are actually mentioning them as templates to the interim State to be formed. By the arabs, so no imposing on western thinking here.

Doing nothing or keeping up with the bombing of Gaza will result in furher attacks on Israel. I have no doubt on that. And why? Why keep bombing those poor civilians? They have almost no building left standing. Hamas may be weakened, but still there and looking good, as yourself pointed.