Why do you support Palestine?

[Wildflowers99]

After the horrific kidnapping of the Bibas family and the horrific murder of the mother and her two small children, the time has come to ask British supporters of Palestine why.

A significant number of Palestinians want Sharia law. This is not a conflict of politics to them - it’s a conflict of religion. Therefore, it’s simply a case of Islam must dominate no matter what. 4 in 10 support the attacks in October 2023, which was the mass rape, torture and murder of Israelis using the most psychopathic methods imaginable - not to mention the kidnappings.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/11/amid-the-ceasefire-wrangling-how-popular-is-hamas-in-gaza-now

While I am devastated by the killing of Gazan children in air strikes, and have always supported a ceasefire, I cannot support any advancing of the Palestinian state because I do not want to further a state with views such as those above.

So, please can I ask why you support Palestine as a state? I find it painful watching people blindly marching and demanding support for a state who are opposed to everything they stand for.

Are you seriously saying Hamas didn’t think Israel would retaliate?
They launched an absolutely evil attack out of the blue just hoping for the best?

No but you said it was a coincidence I was so "intrigued" whatever that means, I was replying to another post, and I was genuinely shocked, why bother even getting involved?

Well, it’s all murder then. I’m happy to say that. But we can’t say strangling toddlers is the same as an airstrike. It’s gratuitous and personal

It sounds to me like you’ve been reading anti-Palestinian propaganda, which is purposefully emotive. Of course stranging children is completely unconscionable. An act of terror. But 37 children died on October 7th. Versus 11,000 Palestinian children. Which is the greater evil? Do you really think death by airstrike is somehow cleaner or more “moral”? They are calculated attacks, based on the Israeli military view that the lives of these Palestinian children are valueless. They well know how many civilians are likely to be in these schools, homes, hospitals before they strike. They just don’t care. It’s not 60,000 “oopses”.

I think the thousands of Palestinian mothers who lost children in airstrikes will be grieving their children just as hard as the Israeli mothers (those that aren’t dead themselves).

Because the creation of a Palestinian state would result in widespread human rights abuses and a theocracy which would be inherently dangerous to the West. Not a free, gentle and democratic Palestine like posters keep suggesting.

I honestly don’t see why a Palestinian state would result in this, more than any other majority Muslim state with Sharia law (Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran). I don’t see how you can spin that “fear” and “danger” to justify blocking the creation of a Palestinian state.

There are 43 million people in Afghanistan; 2 million in Gaza. It’s a minute population in comparison. A large number of European countries recognise Palestine as a state already, or have taken pro-Palestine stances. I hardly think there’s a great risk of Hamas committing terrorist attacks in the UK, for example. If they did get statehood, they would likely be focusing on rebuilding their own country.

It honestly sounds like you’ve been too surrounded by pro-Israel propaganda to have formed that view. It’s not logical.

I honestly don’t see why a Palestinian state would result in this, more than any other majority Muslim state with Sharia law (Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran). I don’t see how you can spin that “fear” and “danger” to justify blocking the creation of a Palestinian state

Afghanistan? You mean the country where women aren’t allowed to leave their houses unaccompanied, raise their voice, or go to school? I mean, could any country result in human rights abuses ‘more’ than that? Is it even possible?

It sounds to me like you’ve been reading anti-Palestinian propaganda

If by that you mean the Guardian (as linked upthread), then guilty as charged.

Retaliation can be expected in a war, of course. But Israeli response violated international humanitarian law. I don’t think warcrimes can or should be “expected”.

Killing 60,000+ civilians in a year is a warcrime on an unimaginable scale.

Reasonable “retaliation” in a war is soldiers killing other soldiers, or targeting military bases. Not the mass-murder of civilians. Feels crazy to even have to state that.

I do believe you are being deliberately obtuse.

“inherently dangerous to the West” is what you said. As a reason for preventing Palestinian statehood.

I stated that we have existing countries with Sharia law. Afghanistan is a great example, twenty times the population of Gaza. The West is hardly under a constant bombardment of terrorist attacks from Afghanistan. It is NOT justification for preventing the comparatively small state of Palestine from existing. It is spreading propaganda and stoking fear. “Threat to the West” 🙄

I am well aware of the human rights abuses in Afghanistan. The Afghan people are under a terrorist regime. I don’t actually think this means Afghanistan shouldn’t exist. Normal Afghan people still have the right to statehood and to exist. Just as normal Palestinian people do.

The solution to terrorist regimes is not to
commit genocide against their people.

Sharia law is just Islamic law. Yes, there are a few countries which interpret that in a very extreme manner, but there are others that have much more toned down versions which simply govern issues around marriage, inheritance, banking etc.

Our own laws are heavily influenced by Christianity, but thankfully we don't bother with all of the ridiculous bits in the bible about stoning people etc. Same in many Islamic countries - yes, there are the abhorrent Taliban-style interpretations of Islamic law but not all Islamic countries apply sharia in that way.

I don't think we know enough from the survey that you've quoted about how the Palestinians interviewed for the survey were interpreting "sharia law". They may not mean exactly what you think they mean. I think you are making far too many assumptions.

Surely, Hamas raping, torturing and killing over a thousand people also violates international humanitarian law?

Killing 60,000+ civilians in a year is a warcrime on an unimaginable scale.

Killing over a thousand people in a single day is also a warcrime on an unimaginable scale.

Reasonable “retaliation” in a war is soldiers killing other soldiers, or targeting military bases.

Hamas didn’t target soldiers or military bases, strange that.

I completely agree with you. Hamas are terrorists who commit war crimes.

It’s amazing to me how pro-Israel people always have total dissonance, almost intentional blindness, to the actual numbers involved. They are just breezed over. Not acknowledged at all.

Which is more morally abhorrent - 37 dead children, or 11,000 dead children? Which is a larger warcrime?

It’s the difference between a horrifying terrorist attack, and a genocide.

I would absolutely advocate for Netanyahu to answer in a court for his actions, so it can be established whether crimes have been committed. I don’t understand military strategy and I know the Gaza Strip is a very small and densely populated place, so it needs to be established whether the deaths of civilians were due to unavoidable factors, carelessness or outright targeting.

Reasonable “retaliation” in a war is soldiers killing other soldiers, or targeting military bases.

Hamas didn’t target soldiers or military bases, strange that.

Don't you think if you are the self-described "most moral army in the world" you should be held to a higher standard than the level of terrorists?

Please can you enlighten me as to the most ‘relaxed’ Sharia-governed country, so we can examine the best case scenario?

I respect that take, @Wildflowers99

I’m a pacifist, so that clouds my judgement. I think as soon as the first dozen, hundred, thousand civilians are “accidentally” killed, that’s when military leaders have a moral
obligation to change tactics. To put it bluntly, I don’t know how they sleep at night.

Worth noting that the UN Commission independent investigation did find deliberate targeting of medical facilities, including torture of medical personnel, by Israel. According to the UN, Israel committed “the crime against humanity of extermination.”

I, too, would like Netenyahu to answer in court for his actions.

From the UN report:

Attacks on medical facilities in Gaza, particularly those devoted to paediatric and neonatal care, have led to incalculable suffering of child patients, including newborns, the report said. In continuing these attacks, Israel has violated children’s right to life, denied children access to basic healthcare, and deliberately inflicted conditions of life resulting in the destruction of generations of Palestinian children and, potentially, the Palestinian people as a group.

I support Palestine in the same way I support Israel. It is the same as the way in which I support Iran, Syria, Sudan, North Korea, China, and Russia. The same reason I support any country. That is, I support the right of innocent civilians to a safe life unimpeded by occupying forces, intentional humanitarian crises, and dictatorships. My support for the people and their wellbeing does not extend to support for terrorist, fascist, dictatorial, criminal, or otherwise corrupt leadership. I am pro-two-state-solution, and anti-Hamas as well as anti-Netanyahu. I think Israel has the right to respond to terrorist attacks, but I also think their response has been disproportionate and potentially criminal. Right now I am hoping against hope that Hamas and Netanyahu can both maintain the ceasefire, as I believe the priority should be both the return of the hostages and the cessation of civilian death.

(I also think Trump is consistently goading both sides into taking risks with his "new riviera" plan, though at least for now he appears to have dropped the subject in favour of screwing over Ukraine. It seems the one silver lining of that debacle is that he's not actively trying to destabilise the ceasefire.)

As an aside, while this is not my personal position, I think many people find it easier to support Palestine than Israel in the last year because we're becoming further removed from the events of the Holocaust. I think this is also partly due to the lack of Jewish history being taught and regularly spoken about, which is a direct effect of cultural antisemitism. For many non-Jewish people, people without family ties, I can see how the current Palestinian plight could take precedence over what is considered a historical event. Seeing the daily impact of bombings and ground assaults is more emotive for many than being taught about equally horrific acts in school, or through books and films. I'm aware that the Holocaust is still incredibly present in the consciousness of many Jewish people worldwide, but as fewer people have living memory of the Second World War I don't think this consciousness is reflected among the non-Jewish populace. I do my best to keep myself aware of this bias, and I think Britain as a country and a culture need to work harder to boost Jewish voices and experiences.

What, so that you can try to pick it apart? I doubt there is a country on the planet where you couldn't find some evidence of human rights abuses if you looked.

But you're missing the point. It isn't about whether or not sharia law could be implemented in a way that I would consider tolerable. It's about respecting the right of the Palestinians to decide for themselves.

It's incredibly arrogant to assume that you know best and to argue that entire populations should be denied their sovereignty and freedom because you think they aren't capable of making good decisions about how to govern themselves. Who are you to decide?

Interesting that you don’t take the same laissez-faire, ‘leave them be’ attitude toward the States, and have even started a thread asking what we can ‘do about the rise of the fascism’.

It seems you’re completely against fascism in Western countries, but when it’s a non-Western country they’re simply ‘exercising their freedom of self determination and we should support that’.

I don’t know how you can square this with yourself, I really don’t.

I doubt there is a country on the planet where you couldn't find some evidence of human rights abuses if you looked.

This is so evasive. On a balance of probabilities, do you think you’re more or less likely to find human rights abuses in Sharia countries or non-Sharia countries? For somebody so concerned about fascism, I find your downplaying of capital punishment, theocracy and the routine subjugation of women to be baffling.

I'm not downplaying anything, but you talk as if human rights abuses only occur in Islamic countries with sharia law. The question of whether you're more likely to find human rights abuses in "sharia countries" or "non-sharia countries" really depends on which countries you're talking about. And indeed, on how you are defining "sharia countries" in the first place.

You keep trying to make out that I have some sort of double standard whereby I criticise fascist governments in the west but am happy to tolerate such regimes in non-Western countries. However, you're simply making this up because I haven't said anything of the sort. I hate the Taliban and I hate the Iranian regime every bit as much as I hate Netanyahu and I hate Trump. Maybe more.

But that's irrelevant and you're still missing the point. Hating those regimes doesn't mean that I think Afghanistan, Iran, Israel or the US should cease to exist as independent countries. Reviling their leaders doesn't mean that I believe the people of those countries should lose their right to govern themselves. It means that I want them to choose better leaders. I really don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand.

I find it interesting that you're eager to keep talking about why a Palestinian state would be bad, but I note that you haven't answered the question about what alternative solution you would support. So please enlighten us. If you think the Palestinians should be denied their sovereignty because they can't be trusted to make the right choices, how do you propose that they should be governed and who do you think should do the governing?

The question of whether you're more likely to find human rights abuses in "sharia countries" or "non-sharia countries" really depends on which countries you're talking about. And indeed, on how you are defining "sharia countries" in the first place

This is very ‘President Clinton’. You can literally find an exhaustive list of Sharia countries at the click of a button, including the extent to which Sharia affects their society and legal system. Here it is attached.

But that's irrelevant and you're still missing the point. Hating those regimes doesn't mean that I think Afghanistan, Iran, Israel or the US should cease to exist as independent countries.

But we’re not talking about Gaza ‘ceasing to exist as an independent country’ because it isn’t one. I acknowledge you cannot simply dismantle independent countries, but my point is as Gaza isn’t an independent country, I don’t want to further regimes that carry out human rights abuses under a far right system by making them one.

Look at the small children in Gaza. They haven’t consented to living under Sharia law - particularly the girls - but you’re advocating for this on their behalf. In your luxury belief (from a safe distance) of ‘supporting Palestine’s right to self determination’, you’re consigning these little girls to a system of misogyny and inequality, whether you say you are or not. Like I said I’m happy to examine the most relaxed Sharia country as the ‘best case’ outcome, and even then I’m willing to bet it’s a country that you would call ‘very far right’ if its laws applied to the USA. Which is ironic as you have another thread about how appalled you are by the fascism springing up in the USA, which is likely not as extreme as any Sharia country.

Will be back to answer your other questions when I get a moment - about to do the kids breakfast.

Same here.

Very good post. This is exactly how I feel.

Pure misinformation.

No it’s not. You’re the one who is lying. I don’t know who you’re trying to fool, but it ain’t us.

Here is a small selection of articles regarding Israel’s treatment of Palestinians prior to October 7.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/israel-and-palestine-0