Do people fully support Palestine?

[Dawk]

I read this article and the scales fell from my eyes a bit: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/11/amid-the-ceasefire-wrangling-how-popular-is-hamas-in-gaza-now

I hadn’t realised that a majority of Gazans want a conservative Islamist state and the complete destruction of Israel to create an Islamic state covering the whole country (from the river to the sea I guess). They also support violence and even the sacrifice of their own lives.

I am appalled by the destruction and loss of life in Gaza, but having read this article I can’t understand why support for Palestine isn’t more caveated. Why are people waving flags and supporting Gaza so unconditionally? When you look at the polling described in the article it seems fairly clear that many/most don’t actually want peace unless it follows the complete destruction of Israel.

For me it’s a bit like supporting Iran. I would never wave the Iranian flag around because of what the country stands for. In this case I am horrified by the scale of destruction wrought by the IDF so support Palestine completely in that respect but I’d never wave the flag or chant the slogans.

If you consider yourself ‘pro-Palestine’, what do you think of the ideology described in the article?

I think it's called freedom of expression.
You are free to agree or disagree with those sentiments.
And also to be outraged.

Though the Nazi salute was deeply offensive and arrestable.

What did you think of the placard justifying Hamas and Hezbollah?

”Hamas and Hezbollah are movements against colonialists”

Freedom of expression doesn’t work if it targets one racial group . It also doesn’t work if people are not free ( or safe) to counter the argument ( eg the Iranian counter protester)

I am in favour of freedom of speech but I am not in favour of these marches for the reasons above.

These marches stifle free debate and create fear and mistrust.

Does freedom of expression include support for a proscribed terrorist group?

No I don’t.

The law can cover that.

There don't seem to be many arrests for supporting a terrorist group though. I wonder why 🤔

It's relatively trivial, difficult to prosecute, not really worth court time and good policing should sort it on the spot.

i.e. Anyone being grossly offensive or looking like they might start trouble, warn them and then nick them if they continue. It's called good policing. Which we occasionally get.

That copper with Gideon Falter should have been given a pay rise. What patience.

That's their opinion, that's why they are carrying the banner.

I wouldn't carry one saying that, because it omits the word "terrorist" .

Also I'm not quite sure if I understand colonialism well enough to pigeon-hole it thus.

So you can see that the Nazi salute was offensive but you don't feel moved to comment on open support for a terrorist group that raped, murdered and tortured over 1000 people and took hostages. You shrug at a placard calling for Jews to get out of the NHS and open calls for the destruction of Israel.

Ok, we see you.

Yes we are free to disagree but I posted these because we had rather extensive discussion about whether antisemitism motivates protestors at these marches. The idea that they are all just lovely peaceniks looks like gaslighting to me.

And, actually, there are limits to freedom of expression, in law and in decent society. And freedom of expression also extends to the freedom to counter these hateful protests. The nazi salute was an attack on peaceful Jewish counter protestors. People are free to condemn and criticise these antisemitic protestors and yet by all accounts the participants on these marches turn a blind eye.

A bit like you just did.

These marches stifle free debate and create fear and mistrust.

Absolutely this.

with regards to Zionism I know people who are anti -Zionist and in their terms it means not supporting Israel as a theocratic ethno-state basically. They would support a two state solution but also talk about an ideal one state solution where everyone lives as equal and in harmony. They also believe that Zionism is the ideology behind the expansion of Israel which they believe drives government policy in Gaza and the West Bank,

They definitely aren’t talking about deporting a population or killing anyone because they are all peaceniks. So I don’t think it is always a code word for antisemitism.

It’s not really something I talk about. I think Zionism means different things to different people. I think activism should be about changing hearts and minds. My assumption is that most Israelis are zionists so then this anti Zionism is an unhelpful starting point where you have shut down a conversation before it has ever begun.

I think you can criticise Israeli policy in the West Bank and in Gaza without getting into an unhelpful conversation about Zionism.

It’s her and others who are paying attention.

When you’re reduced to ad hominems, maybe quit.

“…whether antisemitism motivates protestors at these marches. The idea that they are all just lovely peaceniks looks like gaslighting to me.”

Well obviously it won’t be 0 anti-semites at a Palestine rally just like there aren’t 0 islamaphobes at an Israel rally. But when you only have 8 arrested, with only 1 of these for suspected anti-semitism- a 79yr old was alleged to have popped off a Nazi salute and arrested for further investigation. That is 1 person out of tens of thousands of protesters. I think we can estimate that >99% of the Palestine protesters are not anti-semitic.

At what point is a rally a hate march? Personally I think it takes a significant minority doing anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic offences to be able to refer to an entire protest that way.

Jewish block getting ready to join today’s pro Palestine rally
https://x.com/PSCupdates/status/1890748676940722326

Additional photos.

I think it’s dangerous to start dismissing to peace movements generally as antisemitic. Although I agree there is a presence of this at the marches (which absolutely should be stamped out) but if you start to disregard all the peace speakers and by this I mean your general peacenik but also organisations that fight racism and countries that are critical of Israeli policy but calling for a two state solution. When you start accusing them all of antisemitism you are threading dangerous ground. We all need the peace makers.

Trump, musk and their like don’t buy into human rights or anti racism or even peace for anyone- this cause just suits their needs right now … I’m articulating it poorly but it is a dangerous territory for any minority group to involve themselves in.

It’s good to see the placards condemning Hamas and asking for the release of hostages. I’ve not seen those at any of the marches I’ve witnessed and when I asked about it on here I’ve had a lot of hostile pushback about it.

@Fifiworks What’s an unhelpful conversation about Zionism? If you’re going by an assumption, then that can also be wrong. That’s essentially shutting down conversation based on assumption.

Yes, I agree. This wide angle one was in the Metro.
I am fully in support of heavy policing of protests as well.

I think I have explained what I mean. I think activism should be about changing hearts and minds and just holding up an anti Zionist sign shuts down further discussion. Because it means different things to different people.

I think we have so much more tangible stuff to criticise the Israeli government about - the settler’s prioritisation, the destruction of Gaza, the treatment of prisoners…. that we don’t need to start the conversation with a term that the Israeli government and their supporters as well as potentially sympathetic Israeli’s or Jewish people see as antisemitism.

What does that even? Where would this Palestinian state be located? Besides, last I checked Palestine does exist. What’s wrong with peacefully coexisting instead of having illegal settlements? What about removing restrictions so Palestinians can move freely in their own country? Or are they going to be relegated to some fictitious state that does not exist? You only have to look at recent satellite images to see the disproportionate devastation which the IDF and the Israeli government needs to be held accountable for.

So, a counter protestor with a sign reading 'Hamas is Terrorist' was attacked by the crowd and then arrested, while protestors carrying signs reading 'From the River to the Sea..' were left alone by the crowd and the police. Is that what you call good policing?

Are you referring to the incident when Gideon Falter, the chief executive of the Campaign Against Antisemitism, was threatened with arrest for walking near a pro-Palestinian march and being "quite openly Jewish"? You thought that police officer was being patient? I see.

@Dawk So who gets to decide who can and cannot wave their country’s flag and who can and cannot chant slogans? Can’t Israelis wave their country’s flag? What about Brits? Or are only Iranians and Palestinians questioned about their motives for waving a flag?