Slovenia Demands Israel's Removal From Eurovision 2025

[EasterIssland]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-12-22/ty-article/.premium/slovenia-demands-israels-removal-from-eurovision-2025/00000193-ed37-da9f-ad9b-ed7f3d140000

There is no genocide of Kurds in that area. The Kurds are %10-20 of the population in that area and not all of them support the Marxist-Leninist terrorist group YPG. Aren't you guys tired of this type of what aboutism?

This!

Seconded!

Just a bit on the repression of Kurds in Turkey - from wiki for ease of having it all in one place. I certainly know many people in the human rights community who avoid Turkey (e.g. for holiday) because of its appalling human rights record but its never been a cause that has really taken off.

Following the military coup of 1980, the Kurdish languages were officially prohibited in public and private life.[12] Many people who spoke, published, or sang in Kurdish were arrested and imprisoned.[13] In Turkey, it is illegal to use Kurdish as a language of instruction in both public and private schools. The Kurdish language is only allowed as a subject in some schools.[14]

Since the 1970s, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) has condemned Turkey for thousands of human rights abuses.[119][120] The judgments are related to executions of Kurdish civilians,[121] torturing,[122] forced displacements,[123] destroyed villages,[124] arbitrary arrests,[125] murdered and disappeared Kurdish journalists.[126] To cite a recent case, in 2018 and 2020, the ECHR ruled that the arrest and ongoing imprisonment of Selahattin Demirtaş was contrary to five articles in the European Convention on Human Rights and had the "ulterior purpose of stifling pluralism and limiting freedom of political debate"[127][128] and ordered Turkey to pay him 25,000 Euros in compensation.[129] Turkey refused to release him.[130]
The European Commission Against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI) reports that (as of April 2010): "The public use by officials of the Kurdish language lays them open to prosecution, and public defence by individuals of Kurdish or minority interests also frequently leads to prosecutions under the Criminal Code."[131] From the 1994 briefing at the International Human Rights Law Group: "the problem in Turkey is the Constitution is against the Kurds and the apartheid constitution is very similar to it."[132]
In 1998 Leyla Zana received a jail sentence.[133] This prompted one member of the U.S. House of Representative, Elizabeth Furse, to accuse Turkey of being a racist state and continuing to deny the Kurds a voice in the state". Abbas Manafy from New Mexico Highlands University claims "The Kurdish deprivation of their own culture, language, and tradition is incompatible with democratic norms. It reflects an apartheid system that victimizes minorities like Armenians, Kurds, and Alevis."[134]

I take great exception to anyone suggesting that it is antisemitic to simply criticise Israel, and using that as a way to try to shut down and control public debate. many Jewish people are appalled by what is happening and are starting to really question what has been presented to many of us since before we could talk, as a doctrine of liberation. The modern state of Israel was built on extreme violence and the genocide we see now is directly connected to that. It’s not pleasant to contemplate but how can there be an authentic future if people who can’t face the truth do the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting the same things over and over as a way to avoid engaging and shut down debate. But there are some brave people with backbone who won’t turn away, like the woman who made this film which I would implore everyone to watch. https://www.israelismfilm.com/

Thanks for your detailed post. Now if Hamas had returned the hostages quickly there would have been no continuation of the war. Can anyone answer why there are still hostages being held? Supposing they're still alive.

I await a post justifying the kidnapping and retention of hostages which is a war crime and which triggered this conflict. The Israelis were quite content to just let Hamas fire the odd rocket over as they had been doing for months as long as they didn't escalate. Hamas chose to escalate on October 7th. I was on holiday at the time with several Jewish friends who had family living in Israel.

Netanyahu is probably the simplest one word answer. but unfortunately answering that question doesn’t get us to a rich enough understanding of the current situation if we want a lasting solution. For years he pursued a laissez faire attitude to Hamas, allowing copious amounts of funding to reach them because he gambled that a strong Hamas in Gaza mitigated against the possibility of a united Palestine - which for obvious reasons he didn’t want. This led to Hamas accumulating the resources and capacity to do what they did. He sort of won an election but had to get into bed with extremely right wing settler types to exert any power. He also then used the October 7th attacks as an opportunity not to prioritise the return of the hostages but to pursue existing strategic goals of his which include preventing any possibility of Palestinian statehood, getting rid of more Palestinians, and taking greater control of Gaza. He also has used this term of presidency, similarly to Trump, as a way to evade personal criminal responsibility.

Why would anyone want to post in support of taking and holding hostages? Do you genuinely think that people who criticise the Israeli state necessarily must support Hamas? Is the world that black and white to you?

So what's your solution then? I never get an answer to that one.

Anything to say about years of oppression and occupation from Israel? Are you aware ICC has requested Israel to cease the occupation asap? And that they’ve not done it but extended it

no it’s not a justification of what Hamas is doing. The thread is about Israel taking part in Eurovision and not about Hamas taking part in Eurovision.

also, your first sentence has been denied by Israel’s PM so not sure how you’re so sure about the war being over.

Solution to what? The hostage situation or the untenable situation that the state of Israel is currently in? With the former definitely a ceasefire and probably some kind of reciprocal release of Palestinian detainees in Israel. With the latter - it’s clearly really complex and challenging. I think first of all Israel needs a leader who is at least committed to a two state solution which Netanyahu demonstrably is not. I personally don’t think a two state solution would be just or lasting but it could be a good starting point and pragmatically there is a chance it could happen within the next few decades. Lots of mainstream jews would or do support anti occupation in that sense. But from an international law perspective I don’t see how the issue of reparations or right of return for those expelled from 48 can be avoided. I know people instantly shout about jews being outnumbered if this is even discussed but it has to be engaged with in some way, even if those in power are able to say - we aren’t ready to even discuss this yet but we recognise that as a matter of international legal principle, it’s a thing. I think working to address dehumanisation of the other group, on both sides, is the real work that people with some stake in this conflict can do, starting right now, not just in Israel but equally importantly in the diaspora. That’s what Israelism the film is about. She’s no less Jewish at the end of the film.

I await a post justifying the kidnapping and retention of hostages which is a war crime and which triggered this conflict.
Why are you awaiting that? Who here do you think justifies it? Who here hasn't called for the release of hostages?

Agreed that Netanyahu & his extremists have to go for any real progress to be made. the idea that people just have to accept that Israel has to release several convicted criminals and terrorists in exchange for each innocent civilian hostage is a horrific imbalance though. And yet it always seems to be the case. The irony that some of those captured were involved in work to deal with the dehumanisation on both sides is painful too.

I’m not sure that most Palestinian detainees have been convicted of anything, because they aren’t being held under the same system of criminal law and process that would otherwise apply in Israel. There has been a huge uptick in arbitrary detention of Palestinians since October 7th too. https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/g24/032/34/pdf/g2403234.pdf.

It's negotiations and no not always palatable but concessions need to be made. I would argue that Palestinians have paid a huge price for what Hamas did and if you add that to the table I don't see an imbalance. Maybe if the arrest of Netanyahu and Gallant is added to the table less convicted Palestinian prisoners could be released.

Yes, I suppose I was talking about previous occasions when convicted criminals have been released as I don't know who is on the list this time. And even if they havent been convicted they may have been involved in terrorist activity.

Agreed, but with those in administrative detention we will never know. The system is so unfair and arbitrary, and racist (because it’s only for Palestinians, not jews) that it’s impossible to know who is actually dangerous and who isn’t. It’s not actually for that. It’s a tool for collective punishment and interrogation, a direct legacy of the British colonial system, that is only needed when a population of locals need to be oppressed.

A bit of historical context.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/was-there-a-palestinian-national-identity-prior-to-1964/

“would argue that Palestinians have paid a huge price for what Hamas did and if you add that to the table I don't see an imbalance”
I don’t think “balance” ( whatever that means in this context) Is the main consideration.

Whatever concessions are made the Israeli negotiators will need to make sure that Israeli security is not weakened in the future ( by the release of dangerous prisoners) .
There is no point sowing the seeds for another October 7th with the release of certain prisoners.

Exactly. There has to be a strategy to end the cycle of violence.

There is no point sowing the seeds for another October 7th with the release of certain prisoners.

I would assume that would be ensured through negotiations. None of us know what prisoners are being released. I also think it's important that balance is achieved and I think those, on both sides, who have warrants out for their arrest should be brought to justice as part of the process.

I would argue that keeping thousands and thousands of Palestinians, including children, in arbitrary administrative detention is more likely to sew the seeds for another October 7th than very many other things the Israeli government could do

And what point is this in aid of? That the Palestinians didn’t have a modern national identity until very recently. And if true then….so what? It can’t be genocide because they aren’t a “proper” people? What a disgusting line of argument. There’s much more nuanced and complex treatments of this question of Palestinian national identity and culture by Palestinian historians but doubtless you haven’t bothered to read those.

In any event- I hope justice is done and peace can be achieved for everyone. It’s not going to be easy ,