The future for Muslims in the UK is "bleak and dystopian"

[Scirocco]

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/nov/17/muslims-face-bleak-and-dystopian-climate-in-uk-says-head-of-thinktank

According to a report by the Runnymede Trust. The crisis in Palestine and Lebanon is considered to be a major contributing factor.

Yes that suck it up attitude won't help much I'm afraid. And its counter productive to normal society relations which is presumably what everyone hopes for.

It's often the poor & voiceless that get shafted.

In days gone by they formed co-operative societies, unions and even founded a political party! There were communities that supported each other.
Of course the government of the day felt threatened, passed some laws to protect their status quo, deported a few troublemakers.

I wonder who those people might turn to now.

Yes. I'm very pro immigration (because of the economic argument above, and liberty and humanitarian reason), but I often feel more emotionally aligned to people arguing for less immigration, because they are willing to talk about benefits, harms and trade-offs. (Not all are, of course). I feel it shouldn't be that hard to come up with immigration policies that combine high levels of overall immigration (creating a lot of economic surplus to be shared) with high public support (and thus democratic legitimacy), but that's only going to happen if it's OK to identify problems and manage them, without assuming bad motives of the people with concerns.

Yes it's terrible to hear that too. What horrible times for so many.

Yes, asylum seekers whether real or ‘economic’, shoot straight to the top of the housing lists

Is this true? I don't live in the UK but work in the area in Ireland. I would be surprised if things were vastly different. Here if you are an asylum seeker you get housed as an international protection applicant in direct provision centres or emergency accommodation such as hotels or get given a tent if all these are full. You do not go on the social housing list until your application has been granted and you are given leave to remain, in which case you would then apply for social housing to your local council like everyone else.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/living-in-asylum-accommodation/living-in-dispersal-accommodation-english#:~:text=It%20can%20depend%20on%20how,cannot%20choose%20where%20you%20live.

This suggests it is not too different in UK. I think inaccurate claims such as straight to top of housing list are unhelpful. People really need to start engaging in the different processes in their countries, it is not hidden information it is there for all to see and educate themselves.

I think this does need to be addressed - too often people who raise this as a legitimate concern are told it’s inaccurate or a “hate filled “ comment.
It is causing tension and is perceived as unjust.
It goes without saying that this is NOT a justification for Islamophobia , anti semitism or any type of racism or bigotry.

It’s the richest place in Europe and there’s nothing, absolutely nothing for poor locals - but arrive illegally on a small boat as a fit young man and you’re housed free for life.

This kind of statement just means you are blaming the wrong people and letting the government away with it. It is in their interest that you do that, lets them off the hook for policies that have not supported the working poor.

A measured post. Thank you.

There also needs to be a better system for how we deal with a rising issue. It's not a good set up, except for those who profit

Whilst government does need to be held to account, how do you effectively govern a divided society without resorting to authoritarian strategy?

I didn't say that though. Because I don't think there is anything to 'suck up'. Whatever The Daily Mail and so on may say, I truly believe that immigration is a net positive for the UK and its citizens. Many of our institutions, including the NHS, are dependent on workers from overseas. We should be grateful. All the nonsense in the right-wing press about immigration, is just that, nonsense; that doesn't stand up to even minimal scrutiny. It's all myth.
I'm so upset by this thread, to see how much bigotry there is on Mumsnet.
If anyone reading this is originally from overseas, of any faith, please know that you're welcome and 100% an equal member of our society, or you certainly should be ❤️

@wyeaye

Well put.

We are incredibly tolerant in general if you look at the rise of far right parties all across Europe. I think your point gives reason to the rise of reform

I think the concern is that in the long term due to immigration and birth rates there may be slowly increasing demand that our society takes on elements of an Islamic society. There may be more of a demand to recognise Eid a little more formally, there will be greater demand for faith schools, and a subtle but growing disdain for western liberal values. It is wrong to use hate speech or abuse but I think we should not supress fear about discussing British society under the fear of being accused Islamaphobic.

Absolutely, it is an issue everywhere but blaming the asylum seekers for the problem doesn't help and unfortunately gives the government and policy makers reason to shut down the debate as racism and anti immigration

Keep the debate to the policy and implementation failures not blaming individual asylum seekers for the problem.

I have been talking about this for a while and I'm yet to see much that is not backlash around keeping the status quo

I don't mean you, but generally. We are no where near asking people to change this set up.

There's a struggle to find the narrative that says this system is not working

So blame the government.....that's easy

I find it really bizarre how the rhetoric around immigration focuses so much on Muslims and/or asylum seekers. In recent decades we've had huge amounts of immigration from Eastern Europe. And also in terms of the boat crossings, it actually a really quite small number. Legal net migration reached about 3/4 million last year.. a few thousand coming over in boats is not actually the huge number the politicians try to make out.

Personally I am concerned about immigration but I actually only have once concern about it and that's housing. The housing crisis is out of control and I just don't think we can keep on absorbing close to a million people each year.

It's a shame the immigration debate can't be sensibly discussed without racists hijacking the discussion.

The problem is people are so polarised...pick a side...

I’m always fascinated by the global player argument. As if the countries who Britain & the US have gotten involved in were peaceful utopias until the British & US came along.

Colonialism was a dreadful indefensible act perpetrated by Britain, France, Holland, Spain and Portugal hundreds of years ago. How long do these countries have to ‘pay’ for this? When is the trillions in aid enough to pay for the sins of our great great great great grandfathers? And can we get in on the act ….. after all the Roman Empire enslaved hundreds of thousands ….. when do we get are payment for these wrongs.

Postwar - the British and US have been (mainly catastrophically) involved in many countries but why and at whose invitation? These countries weren’t calm oasis of peace and harmony. There were, and still are for the most past, countries with majority Muslim faith who were engaged in a never ending fight between Shia and Sunni. And yes the Brits and US and Russia have got involved but at the FULL INVITATION of one side or other. Do they bare no responsibility whatsoever? And when we don’t, when we finally say No - enough we aren’t getting involved in Syria …..the outcome is no different. Syria is still 10+ years later involved in an ongoing conflict that has killed millions & cause millions of refugees which Europe is expected to host. And the rhetoric is that the US/British have abandoned them??! Damned if we do, damned if we don’t.
The one & probably only good thing the Trump administration might do is end US and by extension British involvement in all foreign wars. I simply don’t care if Shia and Sunni or another faction of Islamic faith want to fight it out to the death in various parts of the world. We should leave them to it and leave the countries involved to sort out the refugees created.

I’m really sorry that both Muslim and Jewish and in fact any other race experiences racism in this country but frankly if you a vocal and large minority of people of the Muslim faith loudly and regularly tell the western world they hate us, want us to die and the end goal is our elimination so they can create a caliphate and then we see them slaughtering each other in the name of that religion in various countries across the world, it can not be a surprise that tolerance towards that religion is low. And before someone says that Islamist is different to Muslim - one begets the other.

This is part of it though

You are more concerned about legal migration due to housing which is your prerogative and up to you

There is also an issue with the current asylum system, not just here but across the EU

Responding as you have doesn't help.

It may be bigoted and unpleasant in many circumstances but it's not a crime so can't be a hate crime. As we currently have MPs who basically ran their campaign on a Gaza platform it's something that should also be addressed.

I'm not sure why this thread is on the Conflict in the Middle East board. It's a very odd fit.

I'm not necessarily saying there's no problems associated with it but I believe politicians have hyped it up to take the focus off the fact that they have allowed huge numbers of legal migration to take place

I think it's the uncontrolled (and dangerous) aspect of people smuggling that worries people.
The older generations remember the coast being heavily fortified and defended and are surprised that thousands can arrive largely uncontrolled
There are still remnants of tank traps on the route from the south coast to London and pillboxes in many of the fields.

As far as the housing crisis goes, we are losing greenfield sites and workable agricultural land at speed, with the ensuing environmental, food supply, mental wellbeing issues. Not everyone copes with high rise living ( lockdown must have added increased mental strain).

Exponential population growth is unsustainable nationally & internationally. Interestingly female education & emancipation tends to be the sharpest brake to population expansion.

I think the opposite, politicians are not addressing the concerns which is why parties to the right are rising across the EU and. in an altered way due to the electoral system, here

This will likely change as votes increase but in a messy kind of way as the status quo is established

To add I think it's legitimate to talk about legal migration and housing but it won't help on this other issue

It is not about blame it is about working towards a solution. The area I work in means I am very engaged in debate towards policy improvements, there are many organisations that would be part of that in the UK, that would make submissions to government based on experiences on the ground, engage with them, find out what the real issues are, what has worked elsewhere, what hasn't, what are they advocating for and so on.
Blame gets nowhere, people just defend their position without looking at alternative options. As I said I work with asylum seekers, the system is not working for them, not working for the areas they are being housed in, not working for the country. Things have to change for the benefit of all and as someone that works with the marginalised all my working career and been a voice and advocate for them, I can see that the system for asylum seekers is broken, the numbers are too high, countries cannot cope but that is not the fault of asylum seekers who the vast majority have legitimate asylum claims.

I did say a minority of Muslims and allegiance to a religion often conflicts with that of state.....Henry VIII anyone...Gut Fawkes?
.
I think it is an extreme minority and the same argument can be made about other religious groups.

The point is that distancing from a state can lead to extremist thinking and is the birthplace of radicalism. A minority accepted but we can't bury discussion .