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Conflict in the Middle East

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ScrollingLeaves · 02/10/2024 14:42

BillySnuz · 02/10/2024 14:36

Doing so does not detract from the fact that other groups were targeted such as the Roma or gay people or the mentally ill. Who benefits from denying these facts?

Hi, sorry - more myth busting from me (there is a lot of confusion about the actual victims of The Holocaust, and it’s not helped by the fact that Wikipedia is also totally wrong/ misleading).

The Holocaust was the industrialized slaughter of 6 million Jews and over one million Roma and Sinti by the Nazis and their collaborators. While the Nazis targeted many groups, only Jews — and in some countries, Roma and Sinti — were subject to extermination as per the policies of the Final Solution. *The Holocaust destroyed 66 percent of Europe’s Jewish population over the span of less than six years.

Now, the Nazis obviously persecuted and murdered other groups: black people, disabled people, Freemasons, Gay people, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Polish and Slavic citizens and POWs, political opponents and trade unionists, Catholic and Protestant clergy. But they weren’t earmarked for complete and utter annihilation like the Jews, Roma, and Sinti were.

Interestingly, the T4 programme — a campaign of forced sterilisation, then later mass murder through involuntary euthanasia— that you mentioned was abandoned in in 1941, bowing to public pressure (it elicited public protests), and also the fact many of its personnel were needed in occupied Eastern Europe for ever larger campaigns of genocide. So that is one instance where the Nazis did backtrack. I’m one of three — one older brother I already mentioned, another older brother who is profoundly autistic. It chills me to the core that autistic people would have been rounded up by the Nazis, experimented on and then murdered.

Then the Wannsee conference took place in 1942 which sanctioned The Final Solution and the wheels were set in motion.

*the exact number of Romani people that the Nazis and their collaborators murdered is not fully known, because population records of these two groups were not kept.

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Thank you for your informative post.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 02/10/2024 14:42

Palestine as a nation and ‘population’ is relatively recent construct.

1960s you say?
The text of the Sana’a Stele,…:
“I subdued from the bank of the Euphrates, the land of Hatti, the land of Amurru in its entirety, the land of Tyre, the land of Sidon, the land of Humri, the land of Edom, the land of Palstu, as far as the great sea of the setting Sun. I imposed tax and tribute on them.” ~ 800 BC

“The Palestinians are also mentioned in the Nimrud Letters..dated c. 735 BC:
“….I spoke to them in these terms:’Bring down lumber, do your work on it, do not deliver it to the Egyptians or Palestinians or I shall not let you go up in the mountains.” (Concerning getting lumber from the mountain forests of what is now Lebanon)

These are just two examples.

25milesfromhome · 02/10/2024 14:43

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 02/10/2024 14:27

Why are you erasing the fact his Muslim religion and Arab ethnicity still got him shot and kidnapped as a hostage just like the Jewish hostages?

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Quaid Farhan Alkadi was shot and taken hostage by Hamas because he refused to lead them to any Israeli Jews. He says so himself in his interview.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-819071

Rescued Bedouin hostage reveals Hamas shot him for not revealing location of Jews

Qaid Farhan Alkadi told channel 12 during captivity "I said to myself that if as a Muslim I receive such treatment, what about the Jews? What kind of treatment do they receive?"

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-819071

Moulook31 · 02/10/2024 14:47

Ezekiela · 01/10/2024 17:37

I saw an interview with a man who had had to pull relatives' bodies out of the rubble of one of the bombed buildings in Beirut. He said he had never supported Hezbollah and the rocket attacks on Israel but now he does. It's radicalising a whole new generation.

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I saw a poster earlier saying “Then the Middle East will have peace”. I cannot believe that after more than 40,000 people killed in Gaza and more in Lebanon recently people think that this will bring peace. The above comment from the man pulling relatives bodies out of the rubble is probably the state this situation is in right now and will remain so. We should all be saying stop being greedy for land and stop the murders for God sakes!

Auvergne63 · 02/10/2024 14:50

Lettherebejustice · 01/10/2024 14:59

Western hypocrisy on full display here, Israel has just invaded a sovereign nation and nobody bats an eyelid.

Exactly this! The Israeli government knew that invading Lebanon would provoke a reaction from Iran. They knew that the USA and other western governments would support them when that reaction came.
People seem to forget that Iran is friendly with Putin, who is friendly with China.
Sometimes, you have to be very careful where you tread.
This won't end well and is putting Israeli, Palestinian and Lebanese civilians at a huge risk. What for?
No peace is secured by force. History has taught us this.

StandingSideBySide · 02/10/2024 14:52

I know I have no right to be the speak police
but
this thread has turned into all other ones on the Gaza topic.
This thread has nothing to do with Palestines land ownership or antisemitism.

Can we all stop the derailments and let this be about the ongoing situation in Lebanon.

Just a thought as there are hundreds of threads going back many many months talking the same talk over and over again.

Inhaledfoodohno · 02/10/2024 14:52

StandingSideBySide · 02/10/2024 14:52

I know I have no right to be the speak police
but
this thread has turned into all other ones on the Gaza topic.
This thread has nothing to do with Palestines land ownership or antisemitism.

Can we all stop the derailments and let this be about the ongoing situation in Lebanon.

Just a thought as there are hundreds of threads going back many many months talking the same talk over and over again.

It's impossible to discuss Lebanon without understanding Gaza and the geopolitical issues of the region.

Plus. Stop policing the thread.

StandingSideBySide · 02/10/2024 14:58

Inhaledfoodohno · 02/10/2024 14:52

It's impossible to discuss Lebanon without understanding Gaza and the geopolitical issues of the region.

Plus. Stop policing the thread.

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I did say I have no right to be the speak police but I do have a right to point out this thread could have been an interesting one about the current situation in Lebanon.
Instead it has been derailed
Again!

Auvergne63 · 02/10/2024 15:07

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 16:20

This is actually a really interesting response because you genuinely seem convinced by what you're saying. The reality is very, very different though. You have really, really extreme views, so I'm not really sure where to even start to be honest. Hopefully some of the more moderate anti-Israel posters will be along soon to acknowledge that your post is too extreme even for them.

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Extreme views? Really? Please do explain why you think they are.
By the way, lumping posters who are against the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza, the WB and now Lebanon is not being anti-Israel.
Netanyahu and his well developed propaganda machine love to conflate the two.
It used to shut down criticism. No any more.
After all, as Ben Gurion himself said " The test of a democracy is freedom of criticism".

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 02/10/2024 15:10

Lettherebejustice
Western hypocrisy on full display here, Israel has just invaded a sovereign nation and nobody bats an eyelid.

I was thinking this. Israel bombed Lebanon. Iran retaliated, in support of Lebanon. Everyone throws their arms up in shock. Many of the Israeli people themselves are against what is happening.

In the last few years our government were scandalised that Russia killed several people in this country.

Why does our government in the UK feel it's ok when Israel does far worse, and that they have the right to get us involved in their support, in our names?

I did not vote for this.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 02/10/2024 15:11

Quite right, @Auvergne63 .

CopperTurquoise · 02/10/2024 15:17

Thank you @BillySnuz I appreciate your posts.

Auvergne63 · 02/10/2024 15:19

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 17:36

@Lalaloveya, have you seen the 7/10 film?

Have you seen the brutality from Hamas?

Personally, I have seen the 7/10 and the images coming out of Gaza, the WB and Lebanon.
I have seen the sheer brutality of Hamas and the IDF ( I suspect that what is happening in Gaza in much worse than we know as no international press is allowed in to witness what is happening. This press black out is unprecedented in war zone. Why?)
Both sides have committed war crimes. I hope the ones responsible for these are brought to justice. The dead deserve justice, don't you?

Humdingerydoo · 02/10/2024 15:21

Auvergne63 · 02/10/2024 15:07

Extreme views? Really? Please do explain why you think they are.
By the way, lumping posters who are against the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza, the WB and now Lebanon is not being anti-Israel.
Netanyahu and his well developed propaganda machine love to conflate the two.
It used to shut down criticism. No any more.
After all, as Ben Gurion himself said " The test of a democracy is freedom of criticism".

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I did explain later. Try reading the thread. And that particular poster is very anti-Israel and follows the same thought processes as the terrorists in question.

herecomesautumn · 02/10/2024 15:26

StandingSideBySide · 02/10/2024 14:52

I know I have no right to be the speak police
but
this thread has turned into all other ones on the Gaza topic.
This thread has nothing to do with Palestines land ownership or antisemitism.

Can we all stop the derailments and let this be about the ongoing situation in Lebanon.

Just a thought as there are hundreds of threads going back many many months talking the same talk over and over again.

Welcome to CIME.

This happens to every thread

It's tiresome and is one of the reasons so many of us only drop in occasionally

quantumbutterfly · 02/10/2024 15:28

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 02/10/2024 14:42

Palestine as a nation and ‘population’ is relatively recent construct.

1960s you say?
The text of the Sana’a Stele,…:
“I subdued from the bank of the Euphrates, the land of Hatti, the land of Amurru in its entirety, the land of Tyre, the land of Sidon, the land of Humri, the land of Edom, the land of Palstu, as far as the great sea of the setting Sun. I imposed tax and tribute on them.” ~ 800 BC

“The Palestinians are also mentioned in the Nimrud Letters..dated c. 735 BC:
“….I spoke to them in these terms:’Bring down lumber, do your work on it, do not deliver it to the Egyptians or Palestinians or I shall not let you go up in the mountains.” (Concerning getting lumber from the mountain forests of what is now Lebanon)

These are just two examples.

wow they were writing in english way back then,

Auvergne63 · 02/10/2024 15:32

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 23:57

I 100% stand by my previous assessment that you have particularly extreme views. I'm surprised no one has never mentioned this to you before.

Your "solution" was something along the lines of Israel withdrawing from everywhere, accepting all the blame for everything that's happened on all fronts over the last few decades and then they can eventually discuss the hostages at some point. So give the terrorists everything they want, and then we can discuss when they're ready. That is very much not a feasible or even remotely sensible solution. It's the kind of suggestion only someone with particularly extreme views would make.

So no, I won't be addressing your "points" further than this because quite frankly, I don't think you'll actually listen to what I'm saying anyway. You are so sure that you are on the right side of history despite seemingly agreeing with terrorists on this matter that I honestly wouldn't even know where to begin.

The way you minimised absolutely every single Israeli fear is what really put me off your post, by the way. It's absolute insanity to pretend that "the other side" doesn't have legitimate concerns.

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So you can't counter debate her points then? That what a debate is about though, not just voicing your opinion.

Humdingerydoo · 02/10/2024 15:34

Auvergne63 · 02/10/2024 15:32

So you can't counter debate her points then? That what a debate is about though, not just voicing your opinion.

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Keep reading.

Auvergne63 · 02/10/2024 15:39

mids2019 · 02/10/2024 05:16

So......The G day landings were an invasion not a defence and so we should condemn them? Weird logic.....

The USA and other nations were officially at war with Germany. Israel is not at war with Lebanon. So, yes Israel invaded Lebanon.

Auvergne63 · 02/10/2024 15:43

mids2019 · 02/10/2024 05:20

Look quite simply we could have said nazism would still exist even if the third Reich was defeated so why bother with D day and VE day. Hey the German people would have still rallied round after the German defeat as many of their civilians got killed. Didn't happen and now Germany is a peace living country that expunged the hate filled ideology 80 years ago. Sometimes war is necessary sadly.

The far right is on the rise in Germany and in other countries. That ideology never died; it was just hidden. Let's not fool ourselves.

StandingSideBySide · 02/10/2024 15:48

herecomesautumn · 02/10/2024 15:26

Welcome to CIME.

This happens to every thread

It's tiresome and is one of the reasons so many of us only drop in occasionally

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Yep,
I haven’t been back in months
Just popped in to see updates as there have been some very good posters on mumsnet since last October and I was able to see updates and intel from the news and websites that I can’t access
This is now like an echo chamber, nothing new here.

Auvergne63 · 02/10/2024 16:01

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NoisyPombear · 02/10/2024 16:05

Auvergne63 · 02/10/2024 15:07

Extreme views? Really? Please do explain why you think they are.
By the way, lumping posters who are against the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza, the WB and now Lebanon is not being anti-Israel.
Netanyahu and his well developed propaganda machine love to conflate the two.
It used to shut down criticism. No any more.
After all, as Ben Gurion himself said " The test of a democracy is freedom of criticism".

Show quote history

Wanting Israeli buildings to be destroyed and claiming Hamas aren't antisemitic is fairly extreme I'd say.

25milesfromhome · 02/10/2024 16:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Lettherebejustice · 02/10/2024 16:24

Moulook31 · 02/10/2024 14:47

I saw a poster earlier saying “Then the Middle East will have peace”. I cannot believe that after more than 40,000 people killed in Gaza and more in Lebanon recently people think that this will bring peace. The above comment from the man pulling relatives bodies out of the rubble is probably the state this situation is in right now and will remain so. We should all be saying stop being greedy for land and stop the murders for God sakes!

Show quote history

It's quite a twisted logic and some posters must have to do some extreme mental gymnastics to convince themselves that the current escalation will bring about peace.

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