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Conflict in the Middle East

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25
YoYoYoYo12345 · 08/09/2024 15:23

@let ........

People have work to do and not hours on here competing with who cares the most. Maybe write your MP, online petition, likely to do more use that criticism of people on a chatting site.

Lettherebejustice · 08/09/2024 15:25

Its not at that scale of deaths as yeman and dafur but still awful

This is not true. The conflict in Yemen is truly awful but to say its not at the same scale is incorrect. It's actually much much worse. If you look at the percentage of deaths over such a short time in Gaza, compared to the other conflicts you mentioned, The scaled of deaths is alot worse. This type of Israeli bombing campaign has been unseen since WWII.
And that's not even taking the siege and withholding of essential life saving equipment into account.

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 08/09/2024 15:28

I hope those defenders of Bibi don’t seriously think that people like me- staunch defenders of the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank, who are presently and undeniably under untenable, existential assault- are Hamas supporters or apologists and deniers of Israel’s trauma.

I would never wipe the October 7th tragedy from Israel’s collective conscience or my own. On the contrary, I hold space for tragedy on both sides, like the majority of people.

I completely understand that the protection of living in a Jewish state, created by a vital need for protection from historical and present day global persecution, has been shaken and violated innumerable times. October 7th is, yet again, one of those terrible days. That said, one of my two shared primary thoughts on October 7th was for the Palestinian people in Gaza; that Hamas’ assault on Israeli people would surely render the Palestinians ‘fish in a barrel.’ Israel’s retaliation was sure to be fierce. I felt very, very frightened for the Palestinian people as much as I did for the Israeli people. But I knew that the Palestinian people of Gaza would be made a collective example of by Israel. Terrible and unforgivable and unforgettable on Bibi’s part. Criminal. Who he is and what he does is criminal. But it doesn’t start and end with Bibi.

Netanyahu, to his own peril, had established trust in Hamas. Security was lax. He had been lulled into a false sense of security by Hamas. Israel’s retaliation was, I suppose, always going to be disproportionate and extreme. He’d been foolish and been made a fool of by Hamas, Netanyahu.

The price has been paid by ordinary people going about their lives on both sides. And isn’t that the fucking tragedy of it all? Who gets nailed to the cross? We do. The average person, just fucking around for a few years here on earth, trying to be happy with the time and place we were airdropped into by the Human Distribution System. We’re at the mercy of these psychopathic fuckos running things. They divide us. They conquer us. It takes courage to rise above the rhetoric, the division, and the hate. If any of you get to that enlightened place, please, screenshot and share that map. Spoiler alert: This and a two state solution will never happen.
It’s our tragedy. This is everyone’s tragedy.

Gaza has become a mass grave.
There is nothing, not one element in any language, that can truthfully describe, support, or justify what is happening to the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank. We are at the nadir of humanity.
Now what?

TimeTravellingTyrion · 08/09/2024 15:38

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 08/09/2024 15:28

I hope those defenders of Bibi don’t seriously think that people like me- staunch defenders of the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank, who are presently and undeniably under untenable, existential assault- are Hamas supporters or apologists and deniers of Israel’s trauma.

I would never wipe the October 7th tragedy from Israel’s collective conscience or my own. On the contrary, I hold space for tragedy on both sides, like the majority of people.

I completely understand that the protection of living in a Jewish state, created by a vital need for protection from historical and present day global persecution, has been shaken and violated innumerable times. October 7th is, yet again, one of those terrible days. That said, one of my two shared primary thoughts on October 7th was for the Palestinian people in Gaza; that Hamas’ assault on Israeli people would surely render the Palestinians ‘fish in a barrel.’ Israel’s retaliation was sure to be fierce. I felt very, very frightened for the Palestinian people as much as I did for the Israeli people. But I knew that the Palestinian people of Gaza would be made a collective example of by Israel. Terrible and unforgivable and unforgettable on Bibi’s part. Criminal. Who he is and what he does is criminal. But it doesn’t start and end with Bibi.

Netanyahu, to his own peril, had established trust in Hamas. Security was lax. He had been lulled into a false sense of security by Hamas. Israel’s retaliation was, I suppose, always going to be disproportionate and extreme. He’d been foolish and been made a fool of by Hamas, Netanyahu.

The price has been paid by ordinary people going about their lives on both sides. And isn’t that the fucking tragedy of it all? Who gets nailed to the cross? We do. The average person, just fucking around for a few years here on earth, trying to be happy with the time and place we were airdropped into by the Human Distribution System. We’re at the mercy of these psychopathic fuckos running things. They divide us. They conquer us. It takes courage to rise above the rhetoric, the division, and the hate. If any of you get to that enlightened place, please, screenshot and share that map. Spoiler alert: This and a two state solution will never happen.
It’s our tragedy. This is everyone’s tragedy.

Gaza has become a mass grave.
There is nothing, not one element in any language, that can truthfully describe, support, or justify what is happening to the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank. We are at the nadir of humanity.
Now what?

What Bibi defenders?

AhNowTed · 08/09/2024 15:42

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 08/09/2024 15:28

I hope those defenders of Bibi don’t seriously think that people like me- staunch defenders of the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank, who are presently and undeniably under untenable, existential assault- are Hamas supporters or apologists and deniers of Israel’s trauma.

I would never wipe the October 7th tragedy from Israel’s collective conscience or my own. On the contrary, I hold space for tragedy on both sides, like the majority of people.

I completely understand that the protection of living in a Jewish state, created by a vital need for protection from historical and present day global persecution, has been shaken and violated innumerable times. October 7th is, yet again, one of those terrible days. That said, one of my two shared primary thoughts on October 7th was for the Palestinian people in Gaza; that Hamas’ assault on Israeli people would surely render the Palestinians ‘fish in a barrel.’ Israel’s retaliation was sure to be fierce. I felt very, very frightened for the Palestinian people as much as I did for the Israeli people. But I knew that the Palestinian people of Gaza would be made a collective example of by Israel. Terrible and unforgivable and unforgettable on Bibi’s part. Criminal. Who he is and what he does is criminal. But it doesn’t start and end with Bibi.

Netanyahu, to his own peril, had established trust in Hamas. Security was lax. He had been lulled into a false sense of security by Hamas. Israel’s retaliation was, I suppose, always going to be disproportionate and extreme. He’d been foolish and been made a fool of by Hamas, Netanyahu.

The price has been paid by ordinary people going about their lives on both sides. And isn’t that the fucking tragedy of it all? Who gets nailed to the cross? We do. The average person, just fucking around for a few years here on earth, trying to be happy with the time and place we were airdropped into by the Human Distribution System. We’re at the mercy of these psychopathic fuckos running things. They divide us. They conquer us. It takes courage to rise above the rhetoric, the division, and the hate. If any of you get to that enlightened place, please, screenshot and share that map. Spoiler alert: This and a two state solution will never happen.
It’s our tragedy. This is everyone’s tragedy.

Gaza has become a mass grave.
There is nothing, not one element in any language, that can truthfully describe, support, or justify what is happening to the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank. We are at the nadir of humanity.
Now what?

Appriciate your post.

Indeed, Gaza is a mass genocidal grave.

Just want to point to something with regards to this "Netanyahu, to his own peril, had established trust in Hamas.".

I'm not sure that's a fair assessment. Netanyahu actively propped up Hamas, in order to destablise the Palestinian Authority, and therefore ensure a two-state solution could never happen. That's been widely reported, but this from 8/20/23 is a fair assessment:

www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

ScrollingLeaves · 08/09/2024 15:49

Re what Israel did in Gaza is not “carpet bombing”

One of ways of attacking which has supplanted that is by drone, so as to make it safer for soldiers.

This is a 2013 article about Col. Wilkerson USA questioning their use and questioning its legality.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/04/drone-death-us-moral-compass

The drone operators have ‘information’ (AI very often) that some (?) or one terrorists are in a building, so bomb that area and its vicinity regardless of the number of civilians there. It is very destructive and disproportionate as we have seen.

This article is about Israel bombing immediately following the Hamas Oct 7 attack. You get a picture of the extraordinary intensity of the attacks.

These pilots have hardly slept for five weeks. They speak of the most powerful and wide-ranging strikes in Gaza they’ve ever made. This was from Nov 23
https://mishpacha.com/drone-strike/
Mispacha is an Israeli magazine and fully supportive of Israel’s approach. This is a description of how the drone operators did not sleep for days as they had to bomb so constantly using what appears to be an AI system within the drones to detect terrorists ( there have been some other reports about the faults with AI on this).

Drone Strike 

UAV’S play an ever-expanding role in Israel’s fight against Hamas

https://mishpacha.com/drone-strike/

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 08/09/2024 15:50

TimeTravellingTyrion · 08/09/2024 15:38

What Bibi defenders?

That’s all you got out of my post? Expand your tunnel vision.

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 08/09/2024 15:55

AhNowTed · 08/09/2024 15:42

Appriciate your post.

Indeed, Gaza is a mass genocidal grave.

Just want to point to something with regards to this "Netanyahu, to his own peril, had established trust in Hamas.".

I'm not sure that's a fair assessment. Netanyahu actively propped up Hamas, in order to destablise the Palestinian Authority, and therefore ensure a two-state solution could never happen. That's been widely reported, but this from 8/20/23 is a fair assessment:

www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Ted thank you! Thank you for this. You absolutely clarified what my lazy use of language did not. I kept it super brief and simplified, mainly because I don’t have your astute knowledge and comprehension. This is a really informative post.

AhNowTed · 08/09/2024 15:56

Not carpet bombing - just "hyperbole".

Has enough been done to tackle incitement to genocide?
Has enough been done to tackle incitement to genocide?
ScrollingLeaves · 08/09/2024 16:07

AhNowTed · 08/09/2024 15:42

Appriciate your post.

Indeed, Gaza is a mass genocidal grave.

Just want to point to something with regards to this "Netanyahu, to his own peril, had established trust in Hamas.".

I'm not sure that's a fair assessment. Netanyahu actively propped up Hamas, in order to destablise the Palestinian Authority, and therefore ensure a two-state solution could never happen. That's been widely reported, but this from 8/20/23 is a fair assessment:

www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

@AhNowTed
There was also this in Haaretz also saying this about Netanyahu and Hamas. I already put it on another thread but here it is again.

Haaretz Oct 20 2023
(without links, but this is on archive ph)
A Brief History of the Netanyahu-Hamas Alliance
For 14 years, Netanyahu's policy was to keep Hamas in power; the pogrom of October 7, 2023, helps the Israeli prime minister preserve his own rule.

Much ink has been spilled describing the longtime relationship – rather, alliance – between Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas. And still, the very fact that there has been close cooperation between the Israeli prime minister (with the support of many on the right) and the fundamentalist organization seemingly evaporated from most of the current analyses – everyone’s talking about “failures,” “mistakes” and “contzeptziot” (fixed conceptions). Given this, there is a need not only to review the history of cooperation but also to conclude unequivocally: The pogrom of October 7, 2023, helps Netanyahu, and not for the first time, to preserve his rule, certainly in the short term.

The MO of Netanyahu’s policy since his return to the Prime Minister’s Office in 2009 has and continues to be, on the one hand, bolstering the rule of Hamas in the Gaza Strip and, on the other, weakening the Palestinian Authority.

His return to power was accompanied by a complete turnaround from the policy of his predecessor, Ehud Olmert, who sought to end the conflict through a peace treaty with the most moderate Palestinian leader – PA President Mahmoud Abbas.

For the last 14 years, while implementing a divide-and-conquer policy vis-a-vis the West Bank and Gaza, “Abu Yair” (“Yair’s father,” in Arabic, as Netanyahu called himself while campaigning in the Arab community before one recent election) has resisted any attempt, military or diplomatic, that might bring an end to the Hamas regime.

In practice, since the Cast Lead operation in late 2008 and early 2009, during the Olmert era, Hamas’ rule has not faced any genuine military threat. On the contrary: The group has been supported by the Israeli prime minister, and funded with his assistance.

When Netanyahu declared in April 2019, as he has after every other round of fighting, that “we have restored deterrence with Hamas” and that “we have blocked the main supply routes,” he was lying through his teeth.

For over a decade, Netanyahu has lent a hand, in various ways, to the growing military and political power of Hamas. Netanyahu is the one who turned Hamas from a terror organization with few resources into a semi-state body.

Releasing Palestinian prisoners, allowing cash transfers, as the Qatari envoy comes and goes to Gaza as he pleases, agreeing to the import of a broad array of goods, construction materials in particular, with the knowledge that much of the material will be designated for terrorism and not for building civilian infrastructure, increasing the number of work permits in Israel for Palestinian workers from Gaza, and more. All these developments created symbiosis between the flowering of fundamentalist terrorism and preservation of Netanyahu’s rule.

Take note: It would be a mistake to assume that Netanyahu thought about the well-being of the poor and oppressed Gazans – who are also victims of Hamas – when allowing the transfer of funds (some of which, as noted, didn’t go to building infrastructure but rather military armament). His goal was to hurt Abbas and prevent division of the Land of Israel into two states.

It’s important to remember that without those funds from Qatar (and Iran), Hamas would not have had the money to maintain its reign of terror, and its regime would have been dependent on restraint.

In practice, the injection of cash (as opposed to bank deposits, which are far more accountable) from Qatar, a practice that Netanyahu supported and approved, has served to strengthen the military arm of Hamas since 2012.

Thus, Netanyahu indirectly funded Hamas after Abbas decided to stop providing it with
funds that he knew would end up being used for terrorism against him, his policies and his people. It’s important not to ignore that Hamas used this money to buy the means through which Israelis have been murdered for years.

In parallel, from a security standpoint, since
Operation Protective Edge in 2014, Netanyahu has been guided by a policy that almost completely ignored the terrorism of the rockets and the incendiary kites and balloons. Occasionally, the media has been exposed to a dog-and-pony show, when such weapons were captured, but not more than that.

It’s worth reminding that last year, the
“government of change”
(the short-lived coalition led by Naftali Bennett and Yair Lapid) exercised a different policy, one of whose expressions was the halting of funding for Hamas arriving via suitcases full of cash. When Netanyahu tweeted, on May 30, 2022, that “Hamas is interested in the existence of the weak Bennett government,” he was lying to the public. The government of change was a disaster for Hamas.

Netanyahu’s nightmare was the collapse of the Hamas regime – something that Israel could have expedited, albeit for a difficult price. One of the proofs for this claim was given during Operation Protective Edge.

At the time, Netanyahu leaked to the media the contents of a presentation that the military had made to the security cabinet laying out the potential repercussions of conquering Gaza. The premier knew that the secret document, which noted that occupying Gaza would cost the lives of hundreds of soldiers, would create an atmosphere of opposition to a widespread ground invasion.

In March 2019, Naftali Bennett told the Channel 13 program Hamakor: “Someone took care to leak that to the media to create an excuse for not taking action… it’s one of the gravest leaks in Israeli history.” Of course, the leak was not investigated, despite many demands from members of the Knesset. In closed-door conversations, Benny Gantz said then, when he was the IDF’s chief of staff, “Bibi leaked this.”

Let this sink in. Netanyahu leaked a “top secret” document in order to thwart the military and diplomatic position of the cabinet, which sought to defeat Hamas with various means. We should heed what Avigdor Lieberman told Yedioth Ahronoth, in an interview published just before the October 7 assault that Netanyahu “continuously thwarted all the targeted assassinations.”

It should be stressed that Netanyahu’s policy of keeping Hamas in charge in Gaza didn’t find expression only through opposition to physical occupation of Gaza and to assassinations of key Hamas players, but also in his determination to thwart any political reconciliation between the PA – Fatah in particular – and Hamas. A prominent example is Netanyahu’s behavior in late 2017, when talks between Fatah and Hamas were actually taking place.

A fundamental disagreement between Abbas and Hamas concerned the question of the Islamist group’s military being subordinate to to the PA. Hamas agreed that the PA would return to running all civilian matters in Gaza but refused to yield its arms.

Egypt and the United States supported reconciliation and worked to achieve it. Netanyahu totally opposed the idea, asserting repeatedly that “reconciliation between Hamas and the PLO makes achieving peace harder.” Of course, Netanyahu didn’t pursue peace, which wasn’t on the agenda in any way back then. His position only served Hamas.

Over the years, from time to time, various figures on both sides of the political spectrum repeatedly pointed to the axis of cooperation between Netanyahu and Hamas. On the one hand, for example, Yuval Diskin, head of the Shin Bet security service from 2005 to 2011, told Yedioth Ahronoth in January 2013, “If we look at it over the years, one of the main people contributing to Hamas’s strengthening has been Bibi Netanyahu, since his first term as prime minister.”

In August 2019, former prime minister Ehud Barak told Army Radio that people who believed that Netanyahu had no strategy were mistaken. “His strategy is to keep Hamas alive and kicking… even at the price of abandoning the citizens [of the south] … in order to weaken the PA in Ramallah.”

And former IDF chief of staff Gadi Eisenkot told Maariv in January 2022 that Netanyahu acted “in total opposition to the national assessment of the National Security Council, which determined that there was a need to disconnect from the Palestinians and establish two states.” Israel moved in the exact opposition direction, weakening the PA and strengthening Hamas.

Shin Bet head Nadav Argaman spoke about this when he finished his term in 2021. He warned explicitly that the lack of dialogue between Israel and the PA had the effect of weakening the latter while bolstering Hamas.

He warned that the relative quiet in the West Bank at the time was deceptive, and that “Israel must find a way to cooperate with the PA and to strengthen it.” Eisenkot commented, in that same 2022 interview, that Argaman was right. “This is what’s happening, and it’s dangerous,” he added.

People on the right said similar things. One of the mantras being repeated was that of newly elected MK Bezalel Smotrich who in 2015 told the Knesset Channel that “Hamas is an asset and Abu Mazen is a burden,” referring to Abbas by his nom de guerre.

In April 2019, Jonatan Urich, one of Netanyahu’s media advisers and a Likud spokesman, told Makor Rishon that one of Netanyahu’s achievements was separating Gaza (both politically and conceptually) from the West Bank. Netanyahu “basically smashed the vision of the Palestinian state in these two places,” he boasted. “Some of the achievement is related to the Qatari money reaching Hamas each month.”

Around the same time in 2019, Likud MK Galit Distel Atbaryan wrote in an effusively complimentary Facebook post: “We must say this honestly – Netanyahu wants Hamas on its feet, and he is ready to pay almost any incomprehensible price for this. Half the country is paralyzed, children and parents are suffering from post-trauma, homes are blown up, people are killed, a street cat holds a nuclear tiger by the balls.” Read it but don’t believe it? It’s worth believing, because this is exactly the policy by which Netanyahu comported himself.

The prime minister himself spoke briefly at times about his position regarding Hamas. In March 2019, he said during a meeting of Likud MKs, at which the subject of transfer of funds to Hamas was under discussion, that, “Whoever opposes a Palestinian state must support delivery of funds to Gaza because maintaining separation between the PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza will prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.”

In a tweet two months later, Channel 13 quoted former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak as telling a Kuwaiti newspaper: “Netanyahu isn’t interested in a two-state solution. Rather, he wants to separate Gaza from the West Bank, as he told me at the end of 2010.”

Gen. (Res.) Gershon Hacohen, a prominent right winger, made things crystal clear in an interview with the online magazine Mida in May 2019. “When Netanyahu didn’t go to war in Gaza to defeat the Hamas regime, he basically prevented Abu Mazen from establishing a united Palestinian state,” he recalled at the time. “We need to exploit the situation of separation created between Gaza and Ramallah. It’s an Israeli interest of the highest level, and you can’t understand the situation in Gaza without understanding this context.”

Netanyahu’s entire policy since 2009 has sought to destroy any possibility of a diplomatic agreement with the Palestinians. It’s the theme of his rule, which depends on the continuation of the conflict. Destroying democracy is an additional aspect of his continuing rule, something that has brought many of us out to the streets during the past year.

In that same 2019 interview with Army Radio, Barak said that Netanyahu was keeping the south “on a constant low flame.” One should pay particular attention to his assertion that the security establishment laid on the cabinet table several times plans “to drain the swamp” of Hamas in Gaza, but the cabinet never discussed them.

Netanyahu knew, Barak added, “that it’s easier with Hamas to explain to Israelis that there is no one to sit with and no one to talk to. If the PA strengthens… then there will be someone to talk to.”

Back to Distel Atbaryan: “Mark my words – Benjamin Netanyahu keeps Hamas on its feet so that the entire State of Israel won’t become the ‘Gaza envelope.’” She warned of disaster “if Hamas collapses,” in which case, “Abu Mazen is liable to control Gaza. If he will control it, voices from the left will arise advocating negotiations and a diplomatic settlement and a Palestinian state, including in Judea and Samaria.” Netanyahu’s mouthpieces are incessantly pumping out such messages.

Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas have an unspoken political alliance against their common enemy – the Palestinian Authority. In other words, Netanyahu has cooperation and agreement with a group whose goal is the destruction of the State of Israel and the
murder of Jews.

New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman was on the mark when he wrote in May 2021, at the time of the establishment of the government of change, that Netanyahu and Hamas were scared of the possibility of a diplomatic breakthrough. He wrote that the premier and Hamas both “wanted to destroy the possibility of political change before it could destroy them politically.”

He then explained that they didn’t need to talk or have an agreement between them. “They each understand what the other needs to stay in power and consciously or unconsciously behave in ways to ensure that they deliver it.”

I could go on and on expanding on the subject of this cooperation, but the preceding examples speak for themselves. The 2023 pogrom is a result of Netanyahu’s policy. It is not “a failure of the concept” – rather, this is the concept: Netanyahu and Hamas are political partners, and both sides have fulfilled their side of the bargain.

In the future, more details will emerge that will shed additional light on that mutual understanding. Don’t make the mistake of thinking – even now – that as long as Netanyahu and his present government are responsible for making decisions, the Hamas regime will collapse. There will be a lot of talk and pyrotechnics about the current “war against terror,” but sustaining Hamas is more important to Netanyahu than a few dead kibbutzniks.

Adam Raz is a historian, and author, most recently, of “The Demagogue: The Mechanics of Political Power” (in Hebrew)

AhNowTed · 08/09/2024 16:14

@Scirocco

I've reported one of my own posts to MN, only becuase I can't see this thread on my App. I thought it had been deleted. Seems it's only available on the PC, which I imagine exludes a lot of posters, including usually me, as I predominently use the app. Just FYI.

AhNowTed · 08/09/2024 16:21

@ScrollingLeaves Thanks, I hadn't seen that.

ScrollingLeaves · 08/09/2024 16:21

Lettherebejustice · 08/09/2024 15:25

Its not at that scale of deaths as yeman and dafur but still awful

This is not true. The conflict in Yemen is truly awful but to say its not at the same scale is incorrect. It's actually much much worse. If you look at the percentage of deaths over such a short time in Gaza, compared to the other conflicts you mentioned, The scaled of deaths is alot worse. This type of Israeli bombing campaign has been unseen since WWII.
And that's not even taking the siege and withholding of essential life saving equipment into account.

Edited

Another poster on another thread linked a Guardian article about a Lancet estimate regarding the total number of deaths of Palestinians related to the war:

Scientists are closing in on the true, horrifying scale of death and disease in Gaza
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/05/scientists-death-disease-gaza-polio-vaccinations-israel

Excerpt:

They estimate that about 186,000 total deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza, which is roughly 7.9% of its population, by mid-June 2024. This high number is despite various ceasefire agreements over the past six months. If deaths continue at this rate – about 23,000 a month – there would be an additional 149,500 deaths by the end of the year, some six and half months from the initial mid-June estimate. Using the method, the total deaths since the conflict began would be estimated at about 335,500 in total.

335,500 Palestinian deaths in total by the end of the year.

(edited for typo)

YoYoYoYo12345 · 08/09/2024 16:42

TimeTravellingTyrion · 08/09/2024 15:38

What Bibi defenders?

Exactly, who are these defenders. Almost everyone correctly thinks he's mad.

AhNowTed · 08/09/2024 16:53

ScrollingLeaves · 08/09/2024 16:21

Another poster on another thread linked a Guardian article about a Lancet estimate regarding the total number of deaths of Palestinians related to the war:

Scientists are closing in on the true, horrifying scale of death and disease in Gaza
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/05/scientists-death-disease-gaza-polio-vaccinations-israel

Excerpt:

They estimate that about 186,000 total deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza, which is roughly 7.9% of its population, by mid-June 2024. This high number is despite various ceasefire agreements over the past six months. If deaths continue at this rate – about 23,000 a month – there would be an additional 149,500 deaths by the end of the year, some six and half months from the initial mid-June estimate. Using the method, the total deaths since the conflict began would be estimated at about 335,500 in total.

335,500 Palestinian deaths in total by the end of the year.

(edited for typo)

Edited

Exerpt:
The discovery of polio in Gaza reminds us that it’s becoming increasingly difficult to assess the true cost of the war. We don’t have a sense of how widespread disease and starvation are – so called “indirect deaths” – and we are in the dark in terms of total number of deaths. Usually, data is collected from hospitals and morgues, which certify each death and notify the health ministry. Yet these civil registration systems have broken down in Gaza, meaning there is no accurate data on how many deaths have occurred. The health ministry has been trying to put together figures using media reports, which isn’t a reliable way to capture the full picture. It is estimated that there are more than 10,000 bodies buried under rubble still (meaning they can’t be counted), as well as a rising number of unidentifiable bodies.

On Polio (fucking Polio for gods sake): A polio outbreak seems inevitable given that the disease spreads through dirty water and rubbish, which surrounds those living in tents in camps.

10,000 people feared buried under the rubble in Gaza

More than 10,000 people are believed buried under the rubble in Gaza after nearly seven months of devastating conflict, UN humanitarians said on Thursday, citing the enclave’s health authorities.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/05/1149256

AhNowTed · 08/09/2024 17:05

@ScrollingLeaves

335,500 Palestinian deaths in total by the end of the year.

Given what I see on my phone every day from US, British and Palestinian doctors in Gaza (given most of the journalists have been either banished or shot), this is horrifyingly unsurprising.

The death and destruction is overwhelming. God knows how those doctors carry on in indescribable conditions.

Scirocco · 08/09/2024 17:30

AhNowTed · 08/09/2024 16:14

@Scirocco

I've reported one of my own posts to MN, only becuase I can't see this thread on my App. I thought it had been deleted. Seems it's only available on the PC, which I imagine exludes a lot of posters, including usually me, as I predominently use the app. Just FYI.

Are some threads limited in their visibility then? Interesting...

OP posts:
AhNowTed · 08/09/2024 17:35

Scirocco · 08/09/2024 17:30

Are some threads limited in their visibility then? Interesting...

Had a response back from MN - they are looking into it.

Itoosurvive · 08/09/2024 17:41

@Miffylou wrote
"And then Hamas and its apologists can blame Israel for the civilian casualties…"

But it's not only Hamas and Hamas apologists who blame Israel for the civilian casualties. There are also millions of human beings who do not fall into either of those two categories and they too hold Israel responsible for the civilian casualties.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 08/09/2024 22:42

AhNowTed · 08/09/2024 16:14

@Scirocco

I've reported one of my own posts to MN, only becuase I can't see this thread on my App. I thought it had been deleted. Seems it's only available on the PC, which I imagine exludes a lot of posters, including usually me, as I predominently use the app. Just FYI.

I can see it on my phone app, so thread is showing.

Auvergne63 · 09/09/2024 14:53

SharonEllis · 08/09/2024 14:55

No you can't do this. Population density is no excuse for hiding out in hospitals & schools. The tunnels are a deliberate strategy and a choice. You say you are not defending Hamas, but this is not acceptable.

Pardon me? I can't do what? State the fact that Gaza's geography and population density explains ( not excuses) Hamas' strategy? Facts are facts. Argue as much as you want with them; I avoid doing this because it is foolish.
Finally, accusing me of defending Hamas is something I take extremely seriously. Frankly, it is not acceptable.

SharonEllis · 09/09/2024 19:03

Auvergne63 · 09/09/2024 14:53

Pardon me? I can't do what? State the fact that Gaza's geography and population density explains ( not excuses) Hamas' strategy? Facts are facts. Argue as much as you want with them; I avoid doing this because it is foolish.
Finally, accusing me of defending Hamas is something I take extremely seriously. Frankly, it is not acceptable.

That is not a fact though. The fact is that Hamas made a choice to operate through armaments etc concealed in tunnels & civilian infrastructure. There is no other reasoned 'explanation'. They have chosen to operate as terrorists and to conduct their war in a way that puts their citizens at risk. Regardless of what anyone may think of Israel's reaction it does not alter that fact.

PeasfullPerson · 09/09/2024 21:41

The fact that Hamas have put their own civilians in harms way, does not account for the extreme response and number of deaths.

It does nothing to diminish the fact that so far over 40,000 people have died because of bombs and other weapons deployed by Israel.

It does nothing to diminish the fact that the response was, and is, disproportionate, it is not a get out of jail free card to go around indiscriminately killing people who clearly pose no threat.

The problem here, is that Hamas using their own civilians as human shields has been used as an excuse to justify unnecessary death and suffering, and very few people are buying it anymore.

So what is you actual point @SharonEllis

SharonEllis · 09/09/2024 22:06

PeasfullPerson · 09/09/2024 21:41

The fact that Hamas have put their own civilians in harms way, does not account for the extreme response and number of deaths.

It does nothing to diminish the fact that so far over 40,000 people have died because of bombs and other weapons deployed by Israel.

It does nothing to diminish the fact that the response was, and is, disproportionate, it is not a get out of jail free card to go around indiscriminately killing people who clearly pose no threat.

The problem here, is that Hamas using their own civilians as human shields has been used as an excuse to justify unnecessary death and suffering, and very few people are buying it anymore.

So what is you actual point @SharonEllis

Read the conversation. Its not difficult.

Itoosurvive · 09/09/2024 23:18

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