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Conflict in the Middle East

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TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 07/09/2024 15:17

SharonEllis · 07/09/2024 14:30

Oh dear. You need to read up on legal process.

The actual legal process or the one you make up where Israel aren't breaking international law or committing crimes of racial segregation and apartheid?

SharonEllis · 07/09/2024 15:24

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 07/09/2024 15:17

The actual legal process or the one you make up where Israel aren't breaking international law or committing crimes of racial segregation and apartheid?

Obviously the actual one. Neither my opnion, nor the opnion of anyone else on mumsnet has any weight whatsoever in a court of law.

Polka83 · 07/09/2024 15:28

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

They are totally a “judgement” in that an expert panel has reviewed evidence and has advised that there are strong grounds for the ICC prosecutor to brave the wrath of US to apply for warrants.
He also applied for warrants for senior members of Hamas.

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 07/09/2024 15:36

SharonEllis · 07/09/2024 15:24

Obviously the actual one. Neither my opnion, nor the opnion of anyone else on mumsnet has any weight whatsoever in a court of law.

Oh okay, I was just surprised to see you patronisingly suggesting people read up on something you clearly don't believe in or follow.

SababaToo · 07/09/2024 15:45

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anotherlevel · 07/09/2024 15:55

You'd need to be willfully blind to not see that IL has been broken and war crimes committed. It's getting rather tiring to watch people just ignore the sufferings happening and then try to justify it.

Polka83 · 07/09/2024 15:57

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Perhaps then you might want to discuss whether there appear to adequate grounds for the application of arrest warrants then?

Auvergne63 · 07/09/2024 16:07

SharonEllis · 07/09/2024 11:35

I don't actually. They are not breaking international law in Gaza every day. I have regularly crticised illegal settlements in the WB. I remember and actively campaigned against apartheid. Israel is not an apartheid state & the situation is not comparable. The failure of Palestinians political strategy & embracing of terrorism is as much to blame for denying Palestinians self determination as the Israeli state.

Well Desmond Tutu who visited the West Bank wrote this, after his visit:
""I have witnessed the systemic humiliation of Palestinian men, women and children by members of the Israeli security forces. Their humiliation is familiar to all black South Africans who were corralled and harassed and insulted and assaulted by the security forces of the apartheid government."
I trust his opinion over yours, after all he knew what apartheid looked like. I was also actively campaigning against apartheid that it why I find it difficult to understand your stance on this subject. Apartheid is apartheid. It isn't defined by who perpetuates it or in which country it is happening.

Auvergne63 · 07/09/2024 16:16

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Do you think a prosecutor would apply for arrest warrants without having considered in details if he had a strong case and enough evidence before doing so?
Do you think he did it on a whim? I hope these warrants are issued for both the heads of Hamas and Netanyahu.

Auvergne63 · 07/09/2024 16:33

anotherlevel · 07/09/2024 15:55

You'd need to be willfully blind to not see that IL has been broken and war crimes committed. It's getting rather tiring to watch people just ignore the sufferings happening and then try to justify it.

What I find difficult to comprehend is, that despite unbiased evidence from reputable sources ( Reuters, for example) of what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank, some feel able to disregard these as mere opinions.
To add to this, they do not provide any counter evidence at all to support their view point and I wonder why that is.
To quote Rebecca Solnit, "Given a choice between their worldview and the facts, it's always interesting how many people toss the facts".
Ignoring facts does not make them go away.

anotherlevel · 07/09/2024 16:43

I agree @Auvergne63

AhNowTed · 07/09/2024 16:53

anotherlevel · 07/09/2024 16:43

I agree @Auvergne63

Honestly why bother at this stage.

It's grotesque that some will justify this.

Every single day hundreds bombed, shot, "shredded" as one US doctor it, and burnt alive.

Babies and toddlers bodies pulled out of rubble.

The videos, testimonies and reports are there for all to see.

Yet STILL some will justify it all.

Shame on them.

Auvergne63 · 07/09/2024 17:42

AhNowTed · 07/09/2024 16:53

Honestly why bother at this stage.

It's grotesque that some will justify this.

Every single day hundreds bombed, shot, "shredded" as one US doctor it, and burnt alive.

Babies and toddlers bodies pulled out of rubble.

The videos, testimonies and reports are there for all to see.

Yet STILL some will justify it all.

Shame on them.

I know it is pointless to engage but I just cannot comprehend how people can still defend what cannot be defended, how facts are discarded, how suffering can be ignored or/and denied and how it is so easy to lose our humanity.

Lalaloveya · 07/09/2024 20:40

Lalaloveya · 07/09/2024 11:42

So you agree they're breaking international law in Gaza but just not every day?

@sharonellis did you answer my question? I don't think you did and I'm trying to understand your previous post.

Scirocco · 07/09/2024 21:31

AhNowTed · 07/09/2024 16:53

Honestly why bother at this stage.

It's grotesque that some will justify this.

Every single day hundreds bombed, shot, "shredded" as one US doctor it, and burnt alive.

Babies and toddlers bodies pulled out of rubble.

The videos, testimonies and reports are there for all to see.

Yet STILL some will justify it all.

Shame on them.

Dehumanisation works.

Palestinians (and Muslims) are not seen as fully human. So, their (our) suffering is not something people can or wish to empathise with. Some people think it's "a shame", or "very sad", but there's inevitably a "but..." following that. This has happened with various groups at various times in history: if people can be trained into seeing a group as less human, then it matters less to people when bad things happen to that group.

OP posts:
TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 07/09/2024 23:48

Scirocco · 07/09/2024 21:31

Dehumanisation works.

Palestinians (and Muslims) are not seen as fully human. So, their (our) suffering is not something people can or wish to empathise with. Some people think it's "a shame", or "very sad", but there's inevitably a "but..." following that. This has happened with various groups at various times in history: if people can be trained into seeing a group as less human, then it matters less to people when bad things happen to that group.

How do you think this happened in the UK? I'm Irish and as is well documented we(not everyone obviously but most people) have a very different attitude overall to the UK when it comes to Palestinians. I understand in a way how it happened in Israel and how they can turn their backs but I dont understand how the UK got to the point where people feel comfortable saying the things that have been said throughout this conflict. It's sad that Palestinian children are dying in their 1000s but or how it got to the point where against all evidence to the contrary they genuinely believe there is no apartheid or that Gazans have been free to do whatever they like for the past however many decades and they chose violence instead of becoming a thriving tourist destination.

Like you could think that it is because its a foreign conflict happening far away and they just don't particularly care about people so far away but clearly they care a lot about Israelis it's just Palestinians that don't matter. Where has this dehumanising happened, how has it got to such an appalling point, I genuinely don't understand what has gone so wrong that people can hear about Israeli children be killed and not be able to sleep, hug their own children closer etc but when they see 1000s of Palestinian children dead and starving there is nothing. Is it parents, schools, the media? How has it happened and can it ever be changed?

SharonEllis · 08/09/2024 07:06

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 07/09/2024 23:48

How do you think this happened in the UK? I'm Irish and as is well documented we(not everyone obviously but most people) have a very different attitude overall to the UK when it comes to Palestinians. I understand in a way how it happened in Israel and how they can turn their backs but I dont understand how the UK got to the point where people feel comfortable saying the things that have been said throughout this conflict. It's sad that Palestinian children are dying in their 1000s but or how it got to the point where against all evidence to the contrary they genuinely believe there is no apartheid or that Gazans have been free to do whatever they like for the past however many decades and they chose violence instead of becoming a thriving tourist destination.

Like you could think that it is because its a foreign conflict happening far away and they just don't particularly care about people so far away but clearly they care a lot about Israelis it's just Palestinians that don't matter. Where has this dehumanising happened, how has it got to such an appalling point, I genuinely don't understand what has gone so wrong that people can hear about Israeli children be killed and not be able to sleep, hug their own children closer etc but when they see 1000s of Palestinian children dead and starving there is nothing. Is it parents, schools, the media? How has it happened and can it ever be changed?

Where do you come across all these people who don't care about Palestinians? I see stuff on my socials and networks all the time, there are regular marches & demos, fundraisers etc, I have given money to two fundraisers arganised by joint Israeli/Palestinian peace organisations, I have friends that work with Palestinian refugees, and I discuss the war with friends. You see Palestnian flags & badges everywhere. The perception seems to arise over a difference of opinion around Hamas and the absolute blindness to the reality of Hamas's regime & strategy. Supporting Hamas is not supporting Palestinians. Just because people hold Hamas & their propaganda to account doesn't mean they dont believe in peace for Palestinian civilians. The opposite, in fact.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 08/09/2024 07:29

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 07/09/2024 23:48

How do you think this happened in the UK? I'm Irish and as is well documented we(not everyone obviously but most people) have a very different attitude overall to the UK when it comes to Palestinians. I understand in a way how it happened in Israel and how they can turn their backs but I dont understand how the UK got to the point where people feel comfortable saying the things that have been said throughout this conflict. It's sad that Palestinian children are dying in their 1000s but or how it got to the point where against all evidence to the contrary they genuinely believe there is no apartheid or that Gazans have been free to do whatever they like for the past however many decades and they chose violence instead of becoming a thriving tourist destination.

Like you could think that it is because its a foreign conflict happening far away and they just don't particularly care about people so far away but clearly they care a lot about Israelis it's just Palestinians that don't matter. Where has this dehumanising happened, how has it got to such an appalling point, I genuinely don't understand what has gone so wrong that people can hear about Israeli children be killed and not be able to sleep, hug their own children closer etc but when they see 1000s of Palestinian children dead and starving there is nothing. Is it parents, schools, the media? How has it happened and can it ever be changed?

How can it be that hundreds of thousands of Yemeni people are killed and it barely registers in the UK or other countries

How can it be that hundreds of thousands of Urghurs are killed and it barely registers in the UK or other countries

There are many, many atrocities that don't register in many countries around the world. People in each country tend to focus on their own country first and then countries similar to them a d their culture or afliated to them. Lots of countries don't get attention at all. Gaza gets lots of attention but people think it doesn't. It gets billions of aid which other countries don't. It has its own aid organisation, others don't.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 08/09/2024 07:31

SharonEllis · 08/09/2024 07:06

Where do you come across all these people who don't care about Palestinians? I see stuff on my socials and networks all the time, there are regular marches & demos, fundraisers etc, I have given money to two fundraisers arganised by joint Israeli/Palestinian peace organisations, I have friends that work with Palestinian refugees, and I discuss the war with friends. You see Palestnian flags & badges everywhere. The perception seems to arise over a difference of opinion around Hamas and the absolute blindness to the reality of Hamas's regime & strategy. Supporting Hamas is not supporting Palestinians. Just because people hold Hamas & their propaganda to account doesn't mean they dont believe in peace for Palestinian civilians. The opposite, in fact.

This too.

Gaza gets masses of funding, support, airtime. Many countries with deaths in the hundreds of thousands barely get discussed. The middle east conflict in gaza has hundreds of threads dedicated to it.

Scirocco · 08/09/2024 07:46

@TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree I think there are multiple factors contributing to people being exposed to, buying in to, and even not recognising how dehumanisation is a tactic used repeatedly against groups defined as 'other'.

One potentially significant factor in the UK and similar countries is the legacy of colonialism - there is a history of centuries' worth of going to places where the people were 'other', 'civilising' those places (through questionable means) and sustaining rule in those places, often through force. The starting point had to include a lack of parity of esteem for the people and culture in those places. While much of colonialism has faded, there are lasting influences on how people perceive difference and inequality.

There is also the effectiveness of media influences and normalisation of it in society. Having a group that is 'other' helps maintain people's sense of superiority, which some people like to have, and sense of unity/belonging - this is a phenomenon we see throughout society, which is exacerbated in a society which is increasingly focused on individual status and increasingly disconnected. The media and politicians have fed into this, such that people are exposed to it on a daily basis, sometimes explicitly and sometimes more insidiously.

Another factor is that people are quite desensitised to violent and traumatic images anyway, now. Many people can look at the images of traumatic events and not feel the same instinctive horror that people might have years ago, which is then compounded by not being able to take the step of "that could be me/my loved ones". So, no matter how horrible the image, for many people the reactions are: "well, they deserve it", "it's a shame but...", or "I don't want to see that so I'll look away".

OP posts:
Scirocco · 08/09/2024 07:53

This dehumanisation is also part of why there is less attention given to conflicts and disasters where the affected people are either all or mostly considered 'other'. For example - thousands of people are dying and suffering in Sudan, Yemen, Myanmar, etc. Through my own media choices and involvement in Islamic and Arabic-language resources, I get regular news updates about what is happening, but people who don't read these and instead get the majority of their news from mainstream English-language resources might know very little about what is happening in these places.

OP posts:
Scirocco · 08/09/2024 08:01

@TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree I think the concerns expressed about Palestine do offer a glimmer of hope though, that there are now people who are reflecting on and recognising how the actions of governments, the media and groups in society are not what we want our society to be. The first step for getting human rights and compassion to be for all humans is for people to see that we're all human, whatever the colour of our skin, the country of our birth or the religions we practise. There's centuries' worth of indoctrination to fight, though, to get people seeing that.

OP posts:
SharonEllis · 08/09/2024 08:48

YoYoYoYo12345 · 08/09/2024 07:31

This too.

Gaza gets masses of funding, support, airtime. Many countries with deaths in the hundreds of thousands barely get discussed. The middle east conflict in gaza has hundreds of threads dedicated to it.

Exactly this. Its bizarre to suggest that Palestinians are ignored. On mumsnet, where we are, this is patently not the case. And neither is it the case out in the real world. We do often mention how there is no great upswell of support for Afghans, Uigyurs, Yemenis, even Iranian women (it dies down pretty quickly each time) but Africans in particular barely get a footnote in the media and dont seem to register at all on the radar in this country. They aren't even 'forgotten', like, say, Yemen. But if you point this out you are tarred as dehumanising Palestinians with whataboutery. Historically the obsession with Palestine amongst some (not all) is almost a subculture largely, though not exclusively, of the left.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 08/09/2024 08:49

SharonEllis · 08/09/2024 08:48

Exactly this. Its bizarre to suggest that Palestinians are ignored. On mumsnet, where we are, this is patently not the case. And neither is it the case out in the real world. We do often mention how there is no great upswell of support for Afghans, Uigyurs, Yemenis, even Iranian women (it dies down pretty quickly each time) but Africans in particular barely get a footnote in the media and dont seem to register at all on the radar in this country. They aren't even 'forgotten', like, say, Yemen. But if you point this out you are tarred as dehumanising Palestinians with whataboutery. Historically the obsession with Palestine amongst some (not all) is almost a subculture largely, though not exclusively, of the left.

Exactly, many countries are genuinely ignored. No news coverage, no hundreds od threads on mn, no protest marches, no flag waving, little funding.

Dulra · 08/09/2024 09:47

SharonEllis · 08/09/2024 08:48

Exactly this. Its bizarre to suggest that Palestinians are ignored. On mumsnet, where we are, this is patently not the case. And neither is it the case out in the real world. We do often mention how there is no great upswell of support for Afghans, Uigyurs, Yemenis, even Iranian women (it dies down pretty quickly each time) but Africans in particular barely get a footnote in the media and dont seem to register at all on the radar in this country. They aren't even 'forgotten', like, say, Yemen. But if you point this out you are tarred as dehumanising Palestinians with whataboutery. Historically the obsession with Palestine amongst some (not all) is almost a subculture largely, though not exclusively, of the left.

Exactly this. Its bizarre to suggest that Palestinians are ignored. On mumsnet, where we are, this is patently not the case. And neither is it the case out in the real world

No Palestinians are not ignored by the general public agreed, but their suffering is being ignored by those that matter such as the US and they are being persecuted on a daily basis with very little being done internationally to support it and stop the killing of innocent Palestinians

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