Disgusting comments like this normalised

[jerkorperk]

I see countless UK run accounts like this. Hundreds of comments just like this.

Why? It's horrendous. How can we let this be said in Britain without any consequences?

You couldn't start conversations about other communities and not end up reported to the police.

If you want to call out people who specifically support Netanyahu, then calling them Netanyahu supporters would seem appropriate. I don’t think there’s that many of them, certainly not on MN.

I’m not defending the action of the aggressive settlers in the West Bank - I find that deplorable and I find the Israeli government’s contempt for West Bank Palestinians deplorable.
But I do think that it should be possible to condemn those actions but still respect the Zionist belief that the Jews have a right to a homeland and a right to protect that homeland.

Yeah; I think there should be a word for such people as they should be called out.

I'm thinking something similar to Muslim extremists which is a term widely used.

Netanyahu isn’t an extreme Jew.

Just a c*nt then?

Sure. I’m not sure that captures the full extent of it though.

You don’t need to asterisk swearing on MN btw, it’s totally allowed.

Continuing to reply to @poshsnobtwit: But the issue here is that states can be criticized for their policies, and we can regret the violent circumstances of their founding, but that doesn't delegitimize the state itself. There was huge loss of life and expulsion in the partition between India and Pakistan in 1947, whose effects are still felt today, but nobody denies the right of either of those states to exist.

Like India and Pakistan, the state of Israel was established on lands formerly controlled by the British, by the decision of the UN General Assembly in 1947 calling for "the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel". I remind you that that UN decision called to partition Mandatory Palestine into Jewish and Palestinian states, and that the plan was rejected by the Palestinian side; the rejection (and continuing Palestinian rejections to adopt the two-state solution, most recently at Camp David), are at the core of the current conflict. Both sides bear responsibility for the current situation. The problem of violence in Israel/Palestine is not because it is a Jewish state (and by the way, over a quarter of Israelis are not Jewish) - it's because there is an ongoing conflict which neither side's politicians are in a hurry to end.

True, I would say he is an ethnonationalist.

I remind you that that UN decision called to partition Mandatory Palestine into Jewish and Palestinian states, and that the plan was rejected by the Palestinian side;

As a point of fact, the partition was rejected by both sides- the Arabs and Jews living in the Palestine Mandate.

The only Jewish organisation that agreed to it were the American Zionists who presumed to make deals on behalf of Jews in Palestine,

We know they did not agree to the UN partition because there were numerous paramilitary organisations that objected to the partition and kicked off the Nakba, seizing lands that the UN had designated for Palestine.

the rejection (and continuing Palestinian rejections to adopt the two-state solution, most recently at Camp David)

As another point of fact, the PLO and Israel had both agreed to the two state solution in 1993 with the Oslo Accord. However the agreement did not turn out to be anything other than a way for Israel to continue land grabbing, as by 1995 Israel had taken Area C of the West Bank (70% of total WB land area) and banned Palestinians from 60% of the West Bank. Ilegal settlements were meant to be dismantled, but were instead accelerated. Final negotiations and statehood was supposed to be given no later than May 1999. The Camp David 2000 summit failed because Israel refused to give up the parts of the West Bank they had seized, even though the PLO offered a 1:1 land swap so that Israel could swap uninhabited Israeli land to keep the most populated illegal settlements in the West Bank. In addition, Israel wanted 100% of Jerusalem, but the Palestinians could not agree to surrendering East Jerusalem.

The failure of Oslo and Camp David was due to both sides digging in their heels and a climate of mistrust. Nethanyu was involved in these and once bragged about derailing the Oslo Accord as he is vehemently against a two state solution.

Both sides bear responsibility for the current situation.
Absolutely.

That is the major point of conflict though - the choice of homeland has been the direct cause (and continues to be) of severe oppression to the people that are living there. They are expected to suck it up, because its apparently the Jewish birth right. This is what I understand that most people find so contentious about the term 'Zionist', because it's not just a home land, but land that was already lived on.
@israelilefty thanks for your reply. I know it was the British who mandated it, and they have huge reparations to make. Of course the Arabs refused the notion of the partition, if someone came into your home and said will you agree to partition half of your home, you'd obviously say no! Israel do not want a two state solution, but yet want to take more and more. Daniella Weiss openly said the settlements were strategically placed to prevent a Palestinian state being formed.
Re legitimacy. If someone stole my things, I would never say they are legitimately theirs, even if they were awarded them by the state. Upthread a poster mentioned Northern Ireland as an example of "a place where people can move on". This is categorically not true, I am from there and there are many people who do not accept the legitimacy of A British rule. They speak Irish, their children go to Irish schools, they refuse to even call if Northern Ireland. It's incredibly minimising and erasing of people to say "just move on" or "accept the legitimacy" when people have suffered so much as a result of occupation. This is why I have a problem with it being considered antisemitic to say that Israel is not a legitimate state. It might be according to past mandates, but ethically and morally it is wrong. The same for any other place that was taken by occupying forces.

@poshsnobtwit sorry moving on from injustice was the wrong thing to say about Northern Ireland, move on from conflict despite the injustices is more what I meant. I do not think Palestinians should “just move on” either. It’s obviously not that simple.

Israel is a recognised legitimate state though. You can say it was created in an unjust way but it doesn’t take away from it’s legitimacy now. It’s not going to disappear. Having the position that it shouldn’t exist at all is not a position that will ever lead to peace.

Although there has obviously been a ceasefire in NI, I think many would beg to differ that things have truly moved on. NI has one of the highest rates of adolescent mental health issues, and that is largely attributed to the ongoing effects of the Troubles, all of these years later. Britain has never fully acknowledged the harm it caused (and I'm British, so no skin in the game) and that continues to cause harm, resentment and opposition.
Of course Israel, like NI is (largely) recognized as a legitimate state on the global map, but that doesn't mean on a community or even individual level that people will accept that legitimacy, which I think is everyone's right.

ETA: I don't intend to further this conversation as it isn't exactly on topic, but I was pointing it out wrt the term 'zionist' not being straightforward, and why it might be inflammatory/triggering for some.

If we look at self-determination as in NI, or the Falklands, what to you think Israelis would vote for?

Self determination for who? Wrt NI, the British forces occupied for their own ends, to self determine. But that obviously led to great oppression for the Irish.

Self determination for the Israelis. Some seem determined that their country shouldn’t exist, and they want a one state solution which is Palestine.

Self-determination is written into the Good Friday Agreement, NI can reunite with Ireland if the majority agree.

Israelis already have self determination. What about self determination for Palestinians?

People who say that they are antizionist want to remove it from them.

Palestinians should clearly have their own state too.

No one is saying don't self determine. The problem is that that self determination is at the expense of the Palestinians. Land grabbing, oppressive security measures, murder, torture, starvation. Is any of that fair, just, understandable? The politicians don't even pretend to have good intentions, they clearly state the Palestinians are animals, their children are terrorists and need to be eradicated. They don't want a Palestinian state, and they want to make life hell for them. International laws are broken time and time again without any care. If that is self determination, that is a massive problem.

No, that's not self-determination, nor is it Zionism. Boundaries should be clear and respected. International law should be respected.

But there are people who are looking at what is going on in the West Bank and in Gaza and saying that Israel shouldn't exist as a country at all.

People aren't looking at what is going on in Ukraine and saying that Russia shouldn't exist because it is invading and land-grabbing in other countries. People don't say Pakistan shouldn't exist even though it was created with the upheaval and deaths of millions.

People wanting to make a special case and eradicate the only Jewish state in the world should think about why they are agreeing with antisemites like Hamas, Hezebollah, Houthis, Iran on this matter.

But there are people who are looking at what is going on in the West Bank and in Gaza and saying that Israel shouldn't exist as a country at all

Yes, because the treatment from the beginning has been utterly horrendous! Boundaries have always been exceeded, and international laws laughed at. So what does self determination mean then?

Regime change is the normal goal in those circumstances. Not wiping the country off the map.

As if Israel is the only country breaking international laws!

Yes, there are people saying Israel should not exist and there are people saying there should be no Palestinian state. There are extremist elements that are very active towards either the destruction of Israel or the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

These people are not new. They’ve been arguing the same perspective- where one people gets self-determination and a nation and the other gets to be ethnically cleansed from the region- since the 1920s. They haven’t just argued- they have committed terrorist acts, assassinations, all kinds of underhanded violence to push their viewpoint.

Their existence is moot. The fairest thing is both should have self determination. and a nation. I just don’t know how realistic this is because these elements on both sides have one shared goal in mind which is to derail any peace process that could lead to two states. As Hamas has executed pacifist Palestinians, so have a far right Jewish Israeli group assassinated their own PM for daring to agree to a two state solution and work for peace.

Their existence is moot.

They are marching on the streets of London every weekend chanting from the river to the sea. They're in Leeds cheering for a one-state solution. They're on social media saying 'I'm not antisemitic, I'm antizionist'. They're pretty bloody noisy.

And I can imagine Jewish people wondering why when it comes to Israel, the only Jewish state in the world, the call is to wipe it off the map, in agreement with the people who are working towards that goal, like Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran. It seems like a fair question.

This is my view also. I haven't visited Israel for over 25 years because of the policy of allowing settlers on the West Bank. Nevertheless I am 100% Zionist.

And who is going to change Israel's barbaric regime? And what are the "normal circumstances?". The goal for them should be to start adhering to international laws and standards. To stop murdering people, stop the land grabbing, stop the wiping out and erasure of Palestinians.
@noblegiraffe have you missed the Jews calling for an annihilation of the Arabs? Death to their children? Wipe their memory out? Why is it that the aggressor is positioned as the victim here? Or is that OK because they want to self determine?