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Conflict in the Middle East

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LordPercyPercy · 08/06/2024 17:38

Here's an operational account of the hostage rescue for anyone interested:

x.com

https://x.com/academic_la/status/1799477645039845567

SpottedLeopards · 08/06/2024 17:44

LordPercyPercy · 08/06/2024 17:38

Here's an operational account of the hostage rescue for anyone interested:

The two apartments were located using very well-sourced human intelligence assets.

This is important. It means that there are Palestinians risking their own safety because they want Hamas defeated too.

EmpressOfTheThread · 08/06/2024 17:48

SpottedLeopards · 08/06/2024 17:44

The two apartments were located using very well-sourced human intelligence assets.

This is important. It means that there are Palestinians risking their own safety because they want Hamas defeated too.

That's great news. What brave people.

Truthseeker456 · 08/06/2024 17:49

200 Palestinians lost Thier lives . Absolute shame on you

LordPercyPercy · 08/06/2024 17:52

That's great news. What brave people.

Incredibly brave, I can't imagine what a dangerous position they must be in.

Truthseeker456 · 08/06/2024 17:57

This reply has been deleted

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DownNative · 08/06/2024 17:59

SpottedLeopards · 08/06/2024 17:44

The two apartments were located using very well-sourced human intelligence assets.

This is important. It means that there are Palestinians risking their own safety because they want Hamas defeated too.

Given the environment inside Gaza, the HUMINT (Human Intelligence) sources may well have been Hamas terrorist(s).

If so, this may suggest Hamas have some division within their ranks - even if its a small one at present as these can grow the more Hamas is pressured.

Usually, the HUMINT you want is someone who is actually part of the terrorist groups themselves. By "very well placed", they mean their HUMINT sources were close enough to know Hamas' plans with these hostages, their movements and various other small details.

You usually do not want civilians as your HUMINT sources as they often don't last long. Much more easily killed before they can pass the intel on.

Assuming the above is more or less correct, it would indicate the HUMINT sources are of the view Hamas has gone too far and cannot win. They don't necessarily want Hamas to be defeated per se - more likely they want to save their own skins. They don't really have the option to leave, so that leaves sabotage from within.

And HUMINT sources from within terrorist groups DOES actually work to defeat them long term. You just need enough of them. See what happened to PIRA via HUMINT aka CHIS aka....touts.

I'm sure the Israel Defence Force are continually plugging away at their PsyOps designed to foment dissent within the Gazan population towards Hamas. I posted some information in late 2023 from NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence on this side of things.

But NATO StratCom COE identified this would be very limited in scope and effectiveness. The polls of Gazan population opinion certainly bears that out to date.

As I said, this is just my educated guess based on my knowledge of operations against terrorist groups in general.

Not cold hard fact.

LordPercyPercy · 08/06/2024 18:01

@Truthseeker456 it's okay to be happy that four innocent hostages have been reunited with their loved ones. They didn't ask to be in that situation.

DownNative · 08/06/2024 18:02

By the way, HUMINT sources can commit crimes in order to maintain their cover.

A complicated area of law I won't go into nor do I think it's even necessary on Mumsnet.

SpottedLeopards · 08/06/2024 18:03

DownNative · 08/06/2024 17:59

Given the environment inside Gaza, the HUMINT (Human Intelligence) sources may well have been Hamas terrorist(s).

If so, this may suggest Hamas have some division within their ranks - even if its a small one at present as these can grow the more Hamas is pressured.

Usually, the HUMINT you want is someone who is actually part of the terrorist groups themselves. By "very well placed", they mean their HUMINT sources were close enough to know Hamas' plans with these hostages, their movements and various other small details.

You usually do not want civilians as your HUMINT sources as they often don't last long. Much more easily killed before they can pass the intel on.

Assuming the above is more or less correct, it would indicate the HUMINT sources are of the view Hamas has gone too far and cannot win. They don't necessarily want Hamas to be defeated per se - more likely they want to save their own skins. They don't really have the option to leave, so that leaves sabotage from within.

And HUMINT sources from within terrorist groups DOES actually work to defeat them long term. You just need enough of them. See what happened to PIRA via HUMINT aka CHIS aka....touts.

I'm sure the Israel Defence Force are continually plugging away at their PsyOps designed to foment dissent within the Gazan population towards Hamas. I posted some information in late 2023 from NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence on this side of things.

But NATO StratCom COE identified this would be very limited in scope and effectiveness. The polls of Gazan population opinion certainly bears that out to date.

As I said, this is just my educated guess based on my knowledge of operations against terrorist groups in general.

Not cold hard fact.

Yes, I was having second thoughts that they were likely to be acting under duress, but they could have given misinformation if they were loyal. The fact that the hostages were found does say something, about a lack of unity within Hamas.

Truthseeker456 · 08/06/2024 18:08

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Scirocco · 08/06/2024 18:09

SpottedLeopards · 08/06/2024 18:03

Yes, I was having second thoughts that they were likely to be acting under duress, but they could have given misinformation if they were loyal. The fact that the hostages were found does say something, about a lack of unity within Hamas.

Brave people risked and gave their lives to help the hostages home. I doubt they anticipated how many others would die in the process.

The leaders and perpetrators of Hamas's atrocities, including hostage taking, are vile humans. I hope they are brought to justice.

DownNative · 08/06/2024 18:10

SpottedLeopards · 08/06/2024 18:03

Yes, I was having second thoughts that they were likely to be acting under duress, but they could have given misinformation if they were loyal. The fact that the hostages were found does say something, about a lack of unity within Hamas.

And ANY sign of disunity within Hamas OR any terrorist group is a very good opportunity as well as sign for any legitimate military force.

It also indicates this is NOT the right time for a ceasefire as that would give Hamas time to regroup, rearm AND root out the tout within their ranks.

A ceasefire now could cost the HUMINT sources their lives, deprive the Israel Defence Force of vital information AND definitely prolong the war with greater loss of life.

A message some don't want to hear, I'm sure. But often the reality of warfare.

LordPercyPercy · 08/06/2024 18:12

There is nothing to be happy about

Four people are home. A young woman is reunited with her dying mother. That is a cause for happiness.

SpottedLeopards · 08/06/2024 18:12

DownNative · 08/06/2024 18:10

And ANY sign of disunity within Hamas OR any terrorist group is a very good opportunity as well as sign for any legitimate military force.

It also indicates this is NOT the right time for a ceasefire as that would give Hamas time to regroup, rearm AND root out the tout within their ranks.

A ceasefire now could cost the HUMINT sources their lives, deprive the Israel Defence Force of vital information AND definitely prolong the war with greater loss of life.

A message some don't want to hear, I'm sure. But often the reality of warfare.

Absolutely

Auvergne63 · 08/06/2024 18:13

Well it didn't take long to have my post deleted, did it?

Scirocco · 08/06/2024 18:13

@Truthseeker456 there's a few posts about the aid truck and other factors over on another thread (This is the reality...). Some of us do see the very human cost.

I am glad that 4 innocent people are now safe. I am also heartbroken for the loss of innocent lives in the process.

Thisagainandagain · 08/06/2024 18:18

DownNative · 08/06/2024 17:22

Some details are in. 👇

“One of the most complicated hostage rescue missions in history.”

The operation to rescue the hostages from Nusayrat was named "Summer Seeds" and is defined by the IDF as one of the most complex ever for hostage rescue.

The hostages were held in a heavily civilian populated area, above ground, in buildings of 3-4 stories.

The forces stormed the two separate targets where the hostages were held, with Noa held on the first floor and Andrey, Shlomi, and Almog on the third floor of another building, hundreds of meters apart.

Hamas moved the four hostages from apartment to apartment, and the concern was that if the forces only stormed one building, the terrorists would escape with the hostages in the second building.

The Air Force gathered intelligence from the air in the last few days, and the IDF and Shin Bet created conditions to reach the targets without the terrorists shooting the hostages first, which was key to the operation's success.

The models built by the Yamam (Israel's counter-terrorism unit) reminded senior military officials of the models established for the Entebbe operation, with buildings, streets, and small areas for practice.

The main problem was in the apartment where Andrey, Almog, and Shlomi were held, and where Yamam fighter Arnon Zamora was killed.

The rescue took place under heavy fire, and during the disengagement, dozens of terrorists with RPGs and machine guns ran through the alleys towards the targets.

As a result, uninvolved Gazan civilians were also killed in the dense fire exchange. The military said, "The difference between success and failure in such an operation is a hair's breadth, and we relied on exceptional technology from the Intelligence and Shin Bet. Without ground activity and maneuvering in the Gazan area, it would not have been possible to succeed in such operations."

The IDF also noted that the rescue was made possible by Commander Zamora's heroism. "Shin Bet and Intelligence Directorate fighters entered the lion's den in the refugee camp and dismantled houses in areas where we hadn't maneuvered," they said. "This is bravery on the level of Judah Maccabee. The operation was planned for weeks with drills, rescue plans, and fires executed, alongside scenarios of cases and responses."

The forces simultaneously broke into the two houses with special weapons developed for the operation. Immediately after extracting the hostages, the forces began to withdraw while fighting dozens of terrorists, but a vehicle with the three hostages got stuck and came under heavy fire. Division 98 forces jumped in to assist in the vehicle rescue battle, and rescue helicopters entered deep into the strip in daylight.

Three brigades participated in the rescue battle, during which Zamora was also evacuated to the hospital: Brigade 7, Paratroopers, and Kfir with Flotilla 13, along with other special forces. "The fire plan that was executed was focused but extremely powerful," the IDF added. "The cooperation with Shin Bet and Yamam rose to several levels into a single operational system, under the direction of the Shin Bet chief and the Chief of Staff. Four keys to the operation: deception, surprise, determination, and power."

To maintain the secrecy of the operation, thousands of soldiers in the brigades that participated in the rescue were unaware of the nature of the operation before it happened to preserve the element of surprise.

Only a handful of commanders were exposed to the operation yesterday, at various levels. These forces were positioned at the correct launch points without revealing the secret.

During the operation, soldiers were also lightly injured, mainly from shrapnel.

x.com/HenMazzig/status/1799444021963551097

Thank you fir sharing details.

Scirocco · 08/06/2024 18:19

Auvergne63 · 08/06/2024 18:13

Well it didn't take long to have my post deleted, did it?

And I don't think you even specifically referenced what it was that had happened...

Auvergne63 · 08/06/2024 18:19

keenforhelp · 08/06/2024 17:25

Excuse me? I used capital letters to emphasise the essential point that Hamas took the hostages and refused to return them and it could not possibly be the IDF's fault if they were to be hurt!

Also - what stunt are you referring to @Auvergne63

When you use capital letters on a social network, it signifies that you are shouting.
Why Are You Yelling? How All Caps Make You Loud | YourDictionary

Why Are You Yelling? How All Caps Make You Loud

What is the meaning of all caps in a conversation, and why does it make you sound like you're shouting? Learn more about this phenomenon with this guide.

https://www.yourdictionary.com/articles/all-caps-yelling

Auvergne63 · 08/06/2024 18:20

Scirocco · 08/06/2024 18:19

And I don't think you even specifically referenced what it was that had happened...

I know.

keenforhelp · 08/06/2024 18:21

Auvergne63 · 08/06/2024 18:19

When you use capital letters on a social network, it signifies that you are shouting.
Why Are You Yelling? How All Caps Make You Loud | YourDictionary

Yup according to your graphic, I was expressing my shock and outrage - at what you posted about the IDF.

Edited to add a dash.

OP posts:
Echobelly · 08/06/2024 18:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

FWIW, I'm Jewish disgusted by what Israel has done, but I can still be glad some hostages are going home even if the price for that has been utterly beyond what it should have been. And I'm pretty sure that price has been the lives of some of the other hostages as well.

It's also my hope, but of course it cannot be incumbent upon any of them after what they've been through, that maybe some of the hostages will speak out against what the IDF has done as that might actually be a game-changer.

TheBloatedMiddle · 08/06/2024 18:40

Scirocco · 08/06/2024 18:13

@Truthseeker456 there's a few posts about the aid truck and other factors over on another thread (This is the reality...). Some of us do see the very human cost.

I am glad that 4 innocent people are now safe. I am also heartbroken for the loss of innocent lives in the process.

Oh yes. This exactly.

escarg0t · 08/06/2024 18:42

Echobelly · 08/06/2024 18:35

FWIW, I'm Jewish disgusted by what Israel has done, but I can still be glad some hostages are going home even if the price for that has been utterly beyond what it should have been. And I'm pretty sure that price has been the lives of some of the other hostages as well.

It's also my hope, but of course it cannot be incumbent upon any of them after what they've been through, that maybe some of the hostages will speak out against what the IDF has done as that might actually be a game-changer.

Seems as if Israeli lives are just inherently more valuable than Palestinian lives.

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