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Conflict in the Middle East

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48
julili · 09/06/2024 21:13

and we should believe this because?

Alwayslookonthe · 09/06/2024 21:24

DistinguishedSocialCommentator · 09/06/2024 20:51

Thank you!!

So the rich gaza family was using her as a slave!!!

The thing that jumped out at me here was; ‘You should thank God you’re with us; there are far worst places, ‘ like they were a better class of hostage taker!

quantumbutterfly · 09/06/2024 21:27

julili · 09/06/2024 21:13

and we should believe this because?

You believe what you want to believe. I am glad she and the others are back with their families and hope the others are soon returned. Alive or dead😔

MistAndFog · 09/06/2024 21:29

Alwayslookonthe · 09/06/2024 21:24

The thing that jumped out at me here was; ‘You should thank God you’re with us; there are far worst places, ‘ like they were a better class of hostage taker!

Unfortunately after the testimony of some of the other women this is true.

LordPercyPercy · 09/06/2024 21:43

and we should believe this because?

I dont really understand what part you don't believe?

ConnieCounter · 09/06/2024 22:07

ChickyBricky · 09/06/2024 14:49

I can't quite imagine that level of courage and determination.

You might think it's brave. Others would consider it a war crime.

If this is true they'll probably have to deny it.

Februaryfeels · 09/06/2024 22:11

Alwayslookonthe · 09/06/2024 20:45

New testimony from Noa Argamani:

“I was held at a wealthy family's home in Gaza. They kept telling me, 'You should thank God you're with us; there are far worse places.'

While I was there, they would open the door without knocking whenever they wanted me to clean the house.

When I was rescued, a soldier opened the door and said, 'Hello Noa, this is the IDF.' I thought he was joking, so I didn’t move.

Then he told me, 'I’m going to pick you up over my shoulder, is that okay?' That’s when I realized it was actually happening.

During the departure, the truck got stuck, and it was terrifying. The soldiers were so brave. It was a matter of a few seconds, and I might not have been here today.”

(Israeli News 12)

A wealthy family home in Gaza?

I thought it was an open air prison

Yazzi · 09/06/2024 22:19

ChickyBricky · 09/06/2024 11:25

What do you mean, I refuse to care about them? Where did I say that?

I'm only stating the obvious, which is that Hamas are master manipulators. Their whole modus operandi is to ensure maximum civilian deaths. Then photojournalists, like the Al-Jazeera guy who was allegedly holding Noa captive, ensure that social media is flooded with incredibly distressing images of dead and dying children. It's a very effective way of horrifying us into pleading for a ceasefire, perhaps especially effective on a forum like MN, for obvious reasons.

Then you get people sincerely declaring things like "I want a ceasefire so that people in Palestine and Israel can live in peace and safety" - bless. If only that would be the outcome. No one really seems to give a toss what the consequences would be for Israel.

Sorry Chickybricky- I only just saw this.

If I described the ongoing imprisonment of the remaining hostages, including the babies, as "a trump card for the Israeli government" (because they use it to justify the immense suffering Israel is causing to Palestinians), would you honestly believe I cared about the hostages?

Even if you won't admit it, you know what it implies. Surely the very day 200 people were killed, including children, is not when you describe them primarily through the lens of their political value.

Or else it's "one rule for my side, another for theirs".

DistinguishedSocialCommentator · 09/06/2024 22:23

Alwayslookonthe · 09/06/2024 21:24

The thing that jumped out at me here was; ‘You should thank God you’re with us; there are far worst places, ‘ like they were a better class of hostage taker!

I guess this was a cleaner shit hole than the others but sadly, and I hope I'm wrong - these cowards/Hamas, showed us all re their real capabilities against women and children in the Oct 7th's hiedous, vile, disgustingly sick acts

ChickyBricky · 09/06/2024 22:25

@Yazzi but to make it a parallel situation, you'd need Israel to be somehow deliberately encouraging Hamas to take hostages, maybe pushing them into people's homes in Gaza and locking the doors...?

Sorry for the cackhanded analogy, but your comparison isn't really a fair equivalent.

Alwayslookonthe · 09/06/2024 22:36

Februaryfeels · 09/06/2024 22:11

A wealthy family home in Gaza?

I thought it was an open air prison

Hopefully the ‘open air prison’ and ‘concentration camp’ comments have been put to bed. You only have to look at Gazan civilian’s TikTok accounts pre Oct 7 to see this characterisation was completely false.

Yazzi · 09/06/2024 22:47

ChickyBricky · 09/06/2024 22:25

@Yazzi but to make it a parallel situation, you'd need Israel to be somehow deliberately encouraging Hamas to take hostages, maybe pushing them into people's homes in Gaza and locking the doors...?

Sorry for the cackhanded analogy, but your comparison isn't really a fair equivalent.

I would say the fact that Israel has refused multiple offers for the hostages to be released- despite pressure from the US and other international allies, Israelis generally, and the families of the hostages specifically (including the families of the hostages released yesterday)- because their primary aim is killing every member of Hamas and not saving the hostages, would make the parallel fairly sound.

PearlKoala · 09/06/2024 22:49

Februaryfeels · 09/06/2024 22:11

A wealthy family home in Gaza?

I thought it was an open air prison

Honestly this is tragic. Did you really think Gaza is called an open air prison because everybody is poor? And the other poster who is looking at tiktoks and deciding that it isn't why do you think it is described as an open air prison? Have you seen everybody hopping over the border and back? Maybe heading to Gazas airport for their holidays or off on a cruise from the pier?

100s of Palestinians were killed and you guys are smirking about a Palestinian home being described as 'wealthy' like it proves anything at all. I don't understand why you have to reduce a thread to snarking at Palestinians and how they live. Is that really how you want to represent yourselves?

Yazzi · 09/06/2024 22:54

Yazzi · 09/06/2024 22:47

I would say the fact that Israel has refused multiple offers for the hostages to be released- despite pressure from the US and other international allies, Israelis generally, and the families of the hostages specifically (including the families of the hostages released yesterday)- because their primary aim is killing every member of Hamas and not saving the hostages, would make the parallel fairly sound.

Actually though, I'm uncomfortable even going down that path- I am sure you will disagree with my characterisation of the Israeli govt strategy, but that wasn't really the point. The point was that it's hard to say you feel compassion and sorrow for taken lives (whether Palestinians killed or Israeli hostages) when you describe them- at the very moment of their suffering- primarily through the political consequences of their suffering. It dehumanises them.

I am sure if I did it about hostages then you would feel emotionally that what I am saying is disrespectful and takes away from them as people at this moment.

(This is to @ChickyBricky , and sorry for the double post- I should have thought more carefully before my first reply).

Kindatired · 09/06/2024 22:59

DownNative · 09/06/2024 16:58

Probably best you don't bring that one up! 🙈

You've got a very incomplete understanding of the road to the 1998 Belfast Agreement and to expand in detail on it would derail the thread.

Short story - PIRA, UVF and the rest were defeated. Most of them were in prison, a good chunk dead and an ageing, dwindling membership still walking the streets.

The role of intelligence agencies is very overlooked to get to that point.

Your own understanding of conflicts seems to be underpinned by your alignment with the British conservative and unionist establishment and the British intelligence services -which we all know were far from squeaky clean. The reason for the lasting peace is the GFA and the resulting compromises.- in short as it were . But let’s give a big hurray for spies all over the world- yay. And a special call out to those who spotted the weapons of mass destruction- good call there.

And the Israelis are happy to tolerate “low level” conflict as long as the casualties are Palestinian - almost 7000 killed from 2000 up until October 2023 with no progress at all on the Oslo agreement.

It’s great that the hostages have been released. It’s a pity that innocent children have lost their lives when the alternative of proceeding with the Biden peace process could have resulted in more hostages being released with less loss of life.

HelenHen · 09/06/2024 23:24

DownNative · 09/06/2024 16:58

Probably best you don't bring that one up! 🙈

You've got a very incomplete understanding of the road to the 1998 Belfast Agreement and to expand in detail on it would derail the thread.

Short story - PIRA, UVF and the rest were defeated. Most of them were in prison, a good chunk dead and an ageing, dwindling membership still walking the streets.

The role of intelligence agencies is very overlooked to get to that point.

You don't get to summarise the end of the 'troubles' in 2 short sentences.

@Auvergne63 was not incorrect in saying that the UK government did indeed negotiate with 'terrorists' in Northern Ireland.

You are not the only person with experience of that conflict, and it was far from insignificant

Alwayslookonthe · 09/06/2024 23:24

PearlKoala · 09/06/2024 22:49

Honestly this is tragic. Did you really think Gaza is called an open air prison because everybody is poor? And the other poster who is looking at tiktoks and deciding that it isn't why do you think it is described as an open air prison? Have you seen everybody hopping over the border and back? Maybe heading to Gazas airport for their holidays or off on a cruise from the pier?

100s of Palestinians were killed and you guys are smirking about a Palestinian home being described as 'wealthy' like it proves anything at all. I don't understand why you have to reduce a thread to snarking at Palestinians and how they live. Is that really how you want to represent yourselves?

‘open air prison’
https://x.com/Aizenberg55/status/1665745931629723649
open the thread and follow it down. Lots of evidence that the characterisation of Gaza as an open air prison is just not true.

x.com

https://x.com/Aizenberg55/status/1665745931629723649

PearlKoala · 09/06/2024 23:36

Alwayslookonthe · 09/06/2024 23:24

‘open air prison’
https://x.com/Aizenberg55/status/1665745931629723649
open the thread and follow it down. Lots of evidence that the characterisation of Gaza as an open air prison is just not true.

Sorry but that doesn't prove anything. And I fail to see the connection between hostages, wealthy houses and open air prisons. Why are people snarking about 'wealthy homes' and 'shit holes' in a place where over 60% of homes have been rendered uninhabitable leaving over 1 million people without homes on a thread about hostages being rescued? Perhaps it isn't the intention but it does come across as posters mocking displaced people living a war zone a day after 200 of them including small children were killed, to me that inappropriate and uncalled for. There is absolutely no reason a little bit of sensitivity cannot be displayed here, it's great news that 4 hostages are home, there is no need to muddy that with inappropriate, mocking comments about the living conditions of a population that have endured horrendous suffering over the last 8 months.

I'm not looking for a fight so I am out now but it would be great if posters could stop and think about the fact that there are real people and real suffering involved on both sides.

Alwayslookonthe · 09/06/2024 23:45

PearlKoala · 09/06/2024 23:36

Sorry but that doesn't prove anything. And I fail to see the connection between hostages, wealthy houses and open air prisons. Why are people snarking about 'wealthy homes' and 'shit holes' in a place where over 60% of homes have been rendered uninhabitable leaving over 1 million people without homes on a thread about hostages being rescued? Perhaps it isn't the intention but it does come across as posters mocking displaced people living a war zone a day after 200 of them including small children were killed, to me that inappropriate and uncalled for. There is absolutely no reason a little bit of sensitivity cannot be displayed here, it's great news that 4 hostages are home, there is no need to muddy that with inappropriate, mocking comments about the living conditions of a population that have endured horrendous suffering over the last 8 months.

I'm not looking for a fight so I am out now but it would be great if posters could stop and think about the fact that there are real people and real suffering involved on both sides.

Edited

My mistake. I thought you were trying to defend the misrepresentation of Gaza as an open air prison pre 7/10.

PearlKoala · 09/06/2024 23:48

Alwayslookonthe · 09/06/2024 23:45

My mistake. I thought you were trying to defend the misrepresentation of Gaza as an open air prison pre 7/10.

It's OK, we all make mistakes. Goodnight.

keenforhelp · 09/06/2024 23:50

julili · 09/06/2024 21:13

and we should believe this because?

You don't believe she was held hostage?

What don't you believe? That Hamas are wicked? That the family who held her are equally complicit?

OP posts:
keenforhelp · 09/06/2024 23:52

More information on Al Jazeerah journalist hid Israeli hostages for Hamas,.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/09/father-israeli-hostage-almog-jan-died-of-grief-hours-before/

A Palestinian journalist was hiding Israeli hostages in his home for Hamas, Israel said on Sunday.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said that Abdullah al-Jamal, who wrote for the Palestine Chronicle, a US-based non profit news website, was keeping Almog Meir Jan, Andrey Kozlov, and Shlomiz Siv captive in his family home.
The IDF stormed the home by ladder and killed Jamal, his father Dr Ahmed, and his wife, Fatima in the raid that freed the trio on Saturday.
Jamal had once written for Al Jazeera, which has been temporarily banned within Israel. In a post on Twitter, the IDF asked the Qatar-owned news channel: “What’s this terrorist doing on your website?“Abdallah’s home held hostages, along with his family members,” the IDF said. “This is further proof that the terrorist organisation Hamas uses the civilian population as a human shield.”
The Al Jazeera biography for the journalist calls him “a Gaza based reporter and photojournalist. He often reports from the ongoing ‘March of Return’ protests at the fence separating besieged Gaza from Israel”.
The Palestine Chronicle describes itself as a “non-profit organisation whose mission is to educate the general public by providing a forum that strives to highlight issues of relevance to human rights”.
The Hamas journalist was filing stories about Israel’s war in Gaza while the hostages were held in his home.
Among the articles were, “Resistance our only option – Palestinians react to news of Israeli soldiers captured in Jabaliya”, “31 Martyrs in a single Israeli strike – Voices from the Gaza Genocide” and “Testimonies from ‘Camp 2’ massacre in Nuseirat”.
On Sunday, a ban on Al Jazeera’s operations in Israel was extended for another 45 days by the country’s telecoms regulator after the cabinet agreed its broadcasts pose a threat to security.
Israeli authorities raided a Jerusalem hotel room used by Al Jazeera as its office on May 5 and said they were shutting the operation down for the duration of the Gaza war.
Shlomo Karhi, Israel’s communications minister, said: “We will not allow the terrorist channel Al Jazeera to broadcast from Israel and endanger our fighters. In light of the seriousness of the damage to the security of the state I am convinced that the closure orders will be extended in the future as well.”
‘I screamed his name’On Sunday, it emerged that the father of rescued Mr Jan “died of grief” just hours before his son returned home, his family has said.
Yossi Meir, 59, died of a heart attack before the news broke that the IDF had freed his son in the raid.
The army were unable to contact Mr Meir to tell him the news and reached out to his sister Dina Jan instead. Ms Jan, who said she “was so happy I didn’t know what to do”, rushed to Mr Meir’s home in Kfar Saba, in the south of Israel.
She found her brother had died, after months of agonising waiting.
Ms Jan told Israel’s Kan News: “I drove like crazy, I knocked, ‘Yossi, Yossi, Yossi’, and nothing. I got no answer. The door of his house was open and I saw him sleeping in the living room.
“I screamed ‘Yossi’ to him and he didn’t answer me. I saw the colour of his skin, I touched him, but he was dead.”
Mr Meir had lost 20 kilograms since the capture, “glued to the television for the whole eight months, clinging to every piece of information”, Ms Jan said. She added: “My brother died of grief and didn’t get to see his son return.”
It is believed Mr Meir died on Friday night. “We are very happy about Almog’s return, but the brain is unable to absorb that this is the end. We are broken,” Ms Jan said.
A complex rescue operationThe IDF said the operation to rescue Mr Jan was one of its most complex ever, with two separate rescues of four captives in broad daylight.
They said troops came under heavy gunfire from hundreds of Hamas forces during the operation, which brought together elite Israeli units in an undercover mission across air, land and sea.

Al Jazeera journalist hid Israeli hostages for Hamas, claims IDF

Abdullah al-Jamal killed when house holding Almog Meir Jan, Andrey Kozlov, and Shlomiz Siv was raided in Saturday’s rescue mission

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/09/father-israeli-hostage-almog-jan-died-of-grief-hours-before

OP posts:
Auvergne63 · 10/06/2024 07:29

Alwayslookonthe · 09/06/2024 23:24

‘open air prison’
https://x.com/Aizenberg55/status/1665745931629723649
open the thread and follow it down. Lots of evidence that the characterisation of Gaza as an open air prison is just not true.

You are right. The comparison is wrong. At least, if you are in prison, you have a release date, except for a few; in Gaza, you are there for life.
Anyway, Gaza is now an open air graveyard, with the exception of mass graves.
How big is the Gaza strip? The 25-mile-long strip with 2.3 million ‘prisoners’ | The Independent

Gaza under siege: The 25-mile-long strip with 2.3 million ‘prisoners’

Universities and mosques have been targeted by airstrikes in the latest conflict to erupt between Israel and Palestine

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/who-lives-in-gaza-strip-control-history-map-b2437549.html

LordPercyPercy · 10/06/2024 07:44

@keenforhelp thank you for the update, that all confirms the initial reports.

Alwayslookonthe · 10/06/2024 08:38

Auvergne63 · 10/06/2024 07:29

You are right. The comparison is wrong. At least, if you are in prison, you have a release date, except for a few; in Gaza, you are there for life.
Anyway, Gaza is now an open air graveyard, with the exception of mass graves.
How big is the Gaza strip? The 25-mile-long strip with 2.3 million ‘prisoners’ | The Independent

Israel DID NOT control the Rafah border (pre Oct 7) only Egypt & Hamas did.

Hamas published a daily roster of exit permits. As the governing body in Gaza Hamas controls this. Not Israel. Anyone can see this roster online confirming UN statistics.

Gazans have valid International passports & can travel without Israeli control or approval (pre Oct 7). No cages, no prison. As a Gazan you could apply for a passport, Hamas as the governing body issued them.

Hamas could have made exit passes cheaper and travel in general, but there was no ‘life sentence’ for Gazans as you are indicating in your post.

The evidence is just not there to support your assertion that Gazans were under a life sentence and could not leave Gaza due to Israel.

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