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Conflict in the Middle East

Thank you to Ireland, Norway and Spain

426 replies

Scirocco · 22/05/2024 08:21

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-69047220

At a time when justice, empathy and integrity seem to be in short supply, a little light in the darkness.

Link to the BBC Live page covering statements announcing that the countries will recognise a Palestinian state on 28th May.

Ireland and Norway to recognise Palestinian state, with Spain to follow - BBC News

Israel's foreign ministry has warned the move will "fuel extremism and instability".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-69047220

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
Dulra · 22/05/2024 18:16

Humdingerydoo · 22/05/2024 18:03

Isn't it more people being upset that terrorism has won? Even Hamas have said so. They're patting themselves on the back for a murderous, terrorist job well done.

Hamas have a history of seeing that something works, like kidnapping Israelis, and then doing it again and again. So the fear is they'll now be further encouraged to repeat October 7th.

That's where I'm coming from anyway! I want a two state solution, I just don't want Hamas anywhere near any of it.

We can't control how Hamas view this but they should not be a block to Palestine being recognised as a state. Palestine has the right to be recognised as state, a right to self govern, self determination, defend their own borders. Maybe recognising Palestine as a state would see the end to likes of Hamas because Palestinians would no longer feel threatened controlled, locked into small strips of land, they would feel secure and able to build the type of nation they want. They have been denied this for decades and the current situation has not made Israel any safer. As we know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Dulra · 22/05/2024 18:18

And to add the same thing was said about NI when the peace process was negotiated. Look the IRA won we are bowing to terrorists but it worked it brought peace, albeit a fragile one but it definitely reduced the numbers of people willing to take up the gun to get their objectives met.

Humdingerydoo · 22/05/2024 18:20

PearlKoala · 22/05/2024 18:15

But you said yourself that you are in favour of a two state solution? When do you forsee that happening that won't make Hamas think it is happening as a result of their actions. How long should the Palestinian people be left stateless, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? What happens in the meantime, more death and destruction to both Palestinians and Israelis? It has to happen sometime if peace is ever to happen. Hamas will not be part of it, that much is clear but as it is in the Hamas charter that they actively want a 2 state solution then whenever it is proposed Hamas will be pleased.

I mean, I wasn't putting a time frame on it. I would have just preferred for it to happen because of talks between Israel and PA rather than as a response to October 7th.

Has anyone told Hamas they won't be a part of it? Because they seem to think they will.

And just to be clear - Hamas charter also reserves the right to one day take over Israel. Which is why I'm wary of them "winning".

Limesodaagain · 22/05/2024 18:22

Dulra · 22/05/2024 18:07

then carry on mocking my religion
We are both equal members of the religion neither of us own it so I don't know why you refer to it as yours. As a member of the church I am entitled to criticise/ mock/question aspects of it.

your prejudice against my religion
I am not being prejudice, the definition of prejudice is an opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience. I have actual experience....

despite it not being the thread topic and the fact that no one is interested in
I am sure no one is interested so stop responding and questioning me.

Let's leave it now we are obviously very different and never agree on anything on these threads.

FFS - STOP!

Humdingerydoo · 22/05/2024 18:22

Dulra · 22/05/2024 18:16

We can't control how Hamas view this but they should not be a block to Palestine being recognised as a state. Palestine has the right to be recognised as state, a right to self govern, self determination, defend their own borders. Maybe recognising Palestine as a state would see the end to likes of Hamas because Palestinians would no longer feel threatened controlled, locked into small strips of land, they would feel secure and able to build the type of nation they want. They have been denied this for decades and the current situation has not made Israel any safer. As we know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

A bit of a flippant comment - but if the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, why are countries in the west once again unilaterally deciding a new state has all of a sudden been established in the middle east 🙃 It didn't go so well last time.

Fingers crossed it all goes well, I guess!

Dulra · 22/05/2024 18:24

Humdingerydoo · 22/05/2024 18:20

I mean, I wasn't putting a time frame on it. I would have just preferred for it to happen because of talks between Israel and PA rather than as a response to October 7th.

Has anyone told Hamas they won't be a part of it? Because they seem to think they will.

And just to be clear - Hamas charter also reserves the right to one day take over Israel. Which is why I'm wary of them "winning".

Has anyone told Hamas they won't be a part of it? Because they seem to think they will.

As unpalatable and horrible as it is Hamas will be party of those negotiations. Who else would represent Gaza? They are the only party representing them at the moment

Limesodaagain · 22/05/2024 18:25

Parkingt111 · 22/05/2024 17:59

For those posters who are upset that countries are recognising that there should be a Palestinian state, can I ask genuinely why?
What's the alternative to it? For the cycle of violence to continue as it has for past couple of decades?

I don’t fully understand the objection either but I think it might be timing and context suggests it’s a way of taking sides . But Palestinians do have a right to their own state ..

Humdingerydoo · 22/05/2024 18:31

Dulra · 22/05/2024 18:24

Has anyone told Hamas they won't be a part of it? Because they seem to think they will.

As unpalatable and horrible as it is Hamas will be party of those negotiations. Who else would represent Gaza? They are the only party representing them at the moment

Not sure they are representing Gaza though, are they 🙃

Dulra · 22/05/2024 18:31

Humdingerydoo · 22/05/2024 18:22

A bit of a flippant comment - but if the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, why are countries in the west once again unilaterally deciding a new state has all of a sudden been established in the middle east 🙃 It didn't go so well last time.

Fingers crossed it all goes well, I guess!

Edited

, why are countries in the west once again unilaterally deciding a new state has all of a sudden been established in the middle east
They are establishing a new state! They are recognising the state of Palestine, they are not deciding on a new state, the state of Palestine has been recognised by many many states, these are the latest three states to do it

PearlKoala · 22/05/2024 18:33

Humdingerydoo · 22/05/2024 18:20

I mean, I wasn't putting a time frame on it. I would have just preferred for it to happen because of talks between Israel and PA rather than as a response to October 7th.

Has anyone told Hamas they won't be a part of it? Because they seem to think they will.

And just to be clear - Hamas charter also reserves the right to one day take over Israel. Which is why I'm wary of them "winning".

Peace will never be found so long as people have the mindset that it is about 'winning'. It isn't about winning, it is about Israelis and Palestinians having equal states.

Perhaps this is as a result of Oct 7, surely you can see that Oct 7 and everything that has followed has shown just how much peace is needed and how much a long term solution needs to found and how much violence is never going to provide that. The only way is at the negotiating table. Slaughtering Israelis just led to the slaughtering of Palestinians. Violence has just led to more violence. That is what we should be taking from what has happened, not quibbling about who has 'won'.

keenforhelp · 22/05/2024 18:35

Liv999 · 22/05/2024 17:47

Embarrassed me? Oh Lord the only embarrassment here is you admitting you read the Daily Fail 🤣 thanks for the laugh though

Why?

Oh because it's a right wing paper where the readers do not have an appetite for anti-Semitism and marches like the Daily Telegraph.

Not embarrassed - I embrace the guts and bravery of writers who tell it like it is and you don't like it.

Parkingt111 · 22/05/2024 18:37

Limesodaagain · 22/05/2024 18:25

I don’t fully understand the objection either but I think it might be timing and context suggests it’s a way of taking sides . But Palestinians do have a right to their own state ..

Thank you 😊

ElizaMulvil · 22/05/2024 18:43

onegrumpyoldwoman · 22/05/2024 18:15

What are you talking about?

In Luke 2 and Matthew 2 it says clearly.
He was born in Bethlehem. He later lived in Nazereth and worked in his earthly father's shop as a carpenter.

The gospels were written as 'theological ' accounts.There is no agreement among scholars on the historicity of the accounts. Bethlehem is the city of David so a convoluted story was made ( with no historical evidence or likelihood ) to link Jesus to David but no attempt is made to link it with the secular history of the area. There is no historical evidence that the Romans required people to return to their birth place.

Liv999 · 22/05/2024 18:52

This reply has been deleted

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Dulra · 22/05/2024 18:53

Humdingerydoo · 22/05/2024 18:31

Not sure they are representing Gaza though, are they 🙃

Well no but they are the only "elected" representatives

onegrumpyoldwoman · 22/05/2024 18:53

ElizaMulvil · 22/05/2024 18:43

The gospels were written as 'theological ' accounts.There is no agreement among scholars on the historicity of the accounts. Bethlehem is the city of David so a convoluted story was made ( with no historical evidence or likelihood ) to link Jesus to David but no attempt is made to link it with the secular history of the area. There is no historical evidence that the Romans required people to return to their birth place.

You can believe what you like but my information tells me that in 525, Pope John I commissioned Dionysius Exiguus (“Dennis the Short”) to calculate the date of Jesus’ birth.
Dionysius was a Ukrainian monk and a respected scholar, mathematician and astronomer. Working from the old Diocletian calendar that measured time from the (mythical) founding of Rome, Dionysius created a new calendar based on the birth of Jesus.
As he explained at the time, “We are unwilling to connect our cycle with the name of an impious persecutor (i.e., Diocletian), but have chosen rather to note the years from the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Hence, the designation Anno Domini (A.D.) — “In the Year of our Lord.”

Inexplicably, although the entire Western world eventually adopted the A.D. system, historians and chronologers continued to date the years before Christ using the same dating systems of antiquity until the 18′h century, when it finally became common practice to refer to these years as “B.C.” — Before Christ.”

Using the gospels of Matthew and Luke as guides, Dionysius calculated that Jesus was born in the 753rd year of the old Roman calendar. His calculations were probably off by a couple of years as the best evidence indicates that Jesus was probably born sometime between December of 3 BC and February of 2 B.C.

According to the gospels, Jesus was born when Herod the Great was king of Judea, and Herod probably died in 1 B.C.

EasternStandard · 22/05/2024 19:05

Dulra · 22/05/2024 18:24

Has anyone told Hamas they won't be a part of it? Because they seem to think they will.

As unpalatable and horrible as it is Hamas will be party of those negotiations. Who else would represent Gaza? They are the only party representing them at the moment

How will negotiations succeed with Hamas playing this part?

Israel won’t accept

Dulra · 22/05/2024 19:36

EasternStandard · 22/05/2024 19:05

How will negotiations succeed with Hamas playing this part?

Israel won’t accept

Israel won’t accept
But they already are! The ceasefire negotiations include Hamas.

I am not sure what people expect to happen without negotiations with all parties? The only other option is an occupation by Israel in Gaza. I think this is one of my main worries. What happens after Rafah? After a defeat of Hamas, can they be completely defeated and dispelled? Who then governs Gaza? The US and UK made massive mistakes in Iraq and Afghanistan on this

1dayatatime · 22/05/2024 19:37

@Liv999

"You sound confused, this is a Pro Palestinian thread, if you don't agree with the Irish stance ( or Norway or Spain) then off you pop..back to your Daily Fail"

Hmmm see you only want to hear opinions that align with your own rather than actual discussion and debate and anyone who disagrees with you should leave the thread.

No wonder views have become so polarised and entrenched, making a compromise solution that much harder to achieve.

EasternStandard · 22/05/2024 19:43

Dulra · 22/05/2024 19:36

Israel won’t accept
But they already are! The ceasefire negotiations include Hamas.

I am not sure what people expect to happen without negotiations with all parties? The only other option is an occupation by Israel in Gaza. I think this is one of my main worries. What happens after Rafah? After a defeat of Hamas, can they be completely defeated and dispelled? Who then governs Gaza? The US and UK made massive mistakes in Iraq and Afghanistan on this

I mean they won’t accept any presence of Hamas as part of governance

So Hamas might negotiate but they won’t offer up leaving as part of it

If they stay then Israel won’t say yes to negotiations

I do think that a two state solution should be aimed for and at some point should be doable I’m just not sure how Hamas part is resolved?

keenforhelp · 22/05/2024 19:46

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

You do realise that this is an English website (though of course posters all over the world) so curious as to your xenophobic comment "Your British Rag".

I think a few posters on here would take great exception to this comment. What is wrong with being British?

Plenty take me seriously as I have loads of thanks on my posts especially after my links.
No being Pro-Palestinian is not anti-Semitic, of course not, but plenty are.
Look at the marches and student campuses!!!

Dulra · 22/05/2024 19:52

EasternStandard · 22/05/2024 19:43

I mean they won’t accept any presence of Hamas as part of governance

So Hamas might negotiate but they won’t offer up leaving as part of it

If they stay then Israel won’t say yes to negotiations

I do think that a two state solution should be aimed for and at some point should be doable I’m just not sure how Hamas part is resolved?

Tbh I don't think Hamas or Netanyahu should be party of any future in the region but none of that is for us to decide

I mean they won’t accept any presence of Hamas as part of governance
But if you are in support of a two state solution it won't be Israel's place to decide who governs Palestine, that will be the Palestinians decision

I do think that a two state solution should be aimed for and at some point should be doable I’m just not sure how Hamas part is resolved?
It is a difficult, could they get to a place where the terrorists amongst them get expelled and the political wing interested in peace and governance take over, this has happened in many places before, but I don't know if there is a rational political wing of Hamas.

1dayatatime · 22/05/2024 19:54

@Liv999

"Tbh I don't actually care what you read, you go ahead and read your British rag all you want, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously, "

So it appears that you only wish to read newspapers that also align with your existing views. Personally I prefer to read all newspapers as that way I can form my own opinions which is generally somewhere in the middle.

And again it is no wonder with such an approach that views have become so polarised and entrenched, making a compromise solution that much harder to achieve.

EasternStandard · 22/05/2024 19:56

Dulra · 22/05/2024 19:52

Tbh I don't think Hamas or Netanyahu should be party of any future in the region but none of that is for us to decide

I mean they won’t accept any presence of Hamas as part of governance
But if you are in support of a two state solution it won't be Israel's place to decide who governs Palestine, that will be the Palestinians decision

I do think that a two state solution should be aimed for and at some point should be doable I’m just not sure how Hamas part is resolved?
It is a difficult, could they get to a place where the terrorists amongst them get expelled and the political wing interested in peace and governance take over, this has happened in many places before, but I don't know if there is a rational political wing of Hamas.

Well it’s not down to me. I can say I’d like to see it as the outcome but that doesn’t remove the huge barrier in the way.

Israel are part of the negotiations so have to agree to get to the next stage. And they won’t say yes to Hamas staying.

79Helene · 22/05/2024 19:57

@Liv999
You sound confused, this is a Pro Palestinian thread, if you don't agree with the Irish stance ( or Norway or Spain) then off you pop..back to your Daily Fail

also being pro Palestinian is not being anti semitic, that line doesn't work anymore I'm afraid

Two short sentences illustrating everything that's wrong with this board, IMO.

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