All Eyes on Rafah

[Finallyloggedin]

It’s just beyond awful. The idf have dropped leaflets telling Palestinians to move. There is no where for them to go. This is beyond awful. More children will be blown apart, more families destroyed and all for what? Sick beyond what I ever imagined.

The idf have no plan apart from indiscriminate killing.

https://x.com/qudsnen/status/1789316577482989829?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

https://x.com/kahlissee/status/1789184916670013731?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

https://x.com/drtruthe/status/1789311217259139492?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog - this image is very disturbing. I don’t want to upset anyone. The people who really need to see it are those still defending the actions of Israel. And I can show them thousands more images if they think this is an unfortunate isolated incident. This is what idf WANT to do. It is the purpose of the bombs.

@Kriscross apologies, you are right that it wasn’t directed specifically at you, it was for anyone supporting Israel’s actions at this stage really.

I asked the following:

‘Many supporters of Israeli actions characterise the genocide in Gaza as a ‘war’ rather than a ‘genocide’. I don’t agree with this, I believe it’s a genocide.

But, for the people who believe it’s a war, then I guess that it’s Israel against Hamas. You will say that killing top Hamas commanders (if it even happened) can justify the death of countless civilians, as it’s so important to destroy Hamas.

So tell me, does this work both ways? I.e. if Hamas knew that Netanyahu was visiting a school assembly in Tel Aviv, or Gallant was being treated one of the main hospitals, would it be ‘fair game’ to bomb either target, knowing that they would kill hundreds and hundreds of innocent people, but they would take out two war criminals?

To me, this could never be justified, but by your logic I guess it is could?’

And by ‘you’ and ‘your’ I am not being personal specifically to you, I mean the logic that says the bombing that took place today, for example, is justified because it may have killed a senior Hamas commander.

re Deif
They’ve claimed this before

This is Arutz Sheva news (Israeli news) 2014
His 3 year old daughter, wife and seven month old son were killed ( amongst others) but as it turns out, not Deif.

Following the targeted assassination attempt Tuesday night against Mohammed Deif, head of the Hamas "military wing" Al-Qassam Brigades, the body of another family member of the arch-terrorist has reportedly been found.

Hamas emergency services spokesperson Ashraf al-Qudra told AFP that on Thursday, the body of Deif's three-year-old daughter Sara was pulled from the wreckage of the six-story building Deif was thought to be in.

In the <a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20140822005213/www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/184229" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Tuesday night airstrike, Deif's second wife Widad (27) and seven-month-old son Ali were killed. The two were buried on Wednesday in the Jabaliya "refugee camp" as thousands shouted for revenge.

There has been confusion as to whether the strike actually managed to take out the arch-terrorist or not, in the sixth Israeli assassination attempt against Deif. In two previous airstrikes he suffered serious injuries, likely harming his agility and ability to escape.

Israeli intelligence officials on Wednesday told Fox News that the most recent attempt finally found its mark and ended Deif's reign of terror on Israeli citizens.

However, Hamas has been adamantly denying that Deif was killed, with spokesperson Sami Abu Zuhri claiming he is still <a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20140822005213/www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/184241" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">"alive and well."

Hamas has also <a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20140822005213/www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/184266" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">denied a supposed "death certificate" for Deif which has been widely circulating as a "forgery," even while refusing to give specifics about his condition after the attack, leading to speculation he may in fact have been killed or severely injured.

Reuters reported this news in 2014 and also mentioned that Deif had
already been targeted by air strikes four times since the 1990s.

Well someone's been busy reporting posts

You do know that nobody supports mass bloodshed, don't you, OP?

If you dropped the rhetoric about "genocide" and so on, you might find people engage better.

People who want to commit genocide get on and do it. They don't wait for a huge terrorist scale atrocity against them and then fish the "genocide" plan out of the back of the filing cabinet the next day.

The current Israeli leadership is hawkish. That's what's influencing the details of the military response to Oct 7th. Not a quickly conceived plan for genocide.

Even if you believe the IDF is actually, seriously genocidal, I'm sure you can see the issue with describing the whole of Israel as "genocidal". Why do you think Israel was formed?

Lots of people have issues with Netenyahu. There's a lot of common ground to find there.

Stomping all over the sensitivities will achieve nothing.

Yeah I just popped back in to try to catch up and engage a bit, but the last page or so has been skeletonised.

@ScrollingLeaves thank you, it’s really interesting to see this article dating back ten years. So this has been said multiple times. The carnage that the Israeli government and idf are willing to unleash just seems limitless.

@LiterallyOnFire , you’ve made some points but I still don’t think that your answer really addresses my question.

You clearly believe this to be a war rather than a genocide, that point you have conveyed. So can you answer the further question about if Hamas bombed a school or hospital in Tel Aviv to kill Netanyahu or Gallant? Would that be ‘fair game’? (For the avoidance of doubt, to me it would be totally wrong and unjustified, but I also think this about all the massacres taking place in Gaza).

Also, you say that no one likes the blood shed but to me it seems several members of the Israeli parliament fully support it and actually seem very bloodthirsty themselves.

Finally, I shan’t stop referring to it as a genocide until Israel stop committing the genocide. I’m losing faith that they can be stopped but we all should be doing our best to stop them.

I can’t match those before and after photos with each other.

Due to the violence inflicted when the modern state of Israel was created, its future is inextricably linked to the future of Palestine and driven by the knowledge that without a fair settlement there will forever be a risk.
This is eulogy that former Israeli Chief of staff Moshe Dayan gave in 1955:
"Early yesterday morning Roi was murdered. The quiet of the spring morning dazzled him and he did not see those waiting in ambush for him, at the edge of the furrow. Let us not cast the blame on the murderers today. Why should we declare their burning hatred for us? For eight years they have been sitting in the refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we have been transforming the lands and the villages, where they and their fathers dwelt, into our estate. It is not among the Arabs in Gaza, but in our own midst that we must seek Roi's blood. How did we shut our eyes and refuse to look squarely at our fate, and see, in all its brutality, the destiny of our generation? Have we forgotten that this group of young people dwelling at Nahal Oz is bearing the heavy gates of Gaza on its shoulders? Beyond the furrow of the border, a sea of hatred and desire for revenge is swelling, awaiting the day when serenity will dull our path, for the day when we will heed the ambassadors of malevolent hypocrisy who call upon us to lay down our arms. Roi's blood is crying out to us and only to us from his torn body. Although we have sworn a thousandfold that our blood shall not flow in vain, yesterday again we were tempted, we listened, we believed.
We will make our reckoning with ourselves today; we are a generation that settles the land and without the steel helmet and the cannon's maw, we will not be able to plant a tree and build a home. Let us not be deterred from seeing the loathing that is inflaming and filling the lives of the hundreds of thousands of Arabs who live around us. Let us not avert our eyes lest our arms weaken. This is the fate of our generation. This is our life's choice - to be prepared and armed, strong and determined, lest the sword be stricken from our fist and our lives cut down. The young Roi who left Tel Aviv to build his home at the gates of Gaza to be a wall for us was blinded by the light in his heart and he did not see the flash of the sword. The yearning for peace deafened his ears and he did not hear the voice of murder waiting in ambush. The gates of Gaza weighed too heavily on his shoulders and overcame him."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Dayan%27s_eulogy_for_Ro%27i_Rothberg

So can you answer the further question about if Hamas bombed a school or hospital in Tel Aviv to kill Netanyahu or Gallant? Would that be ‘fair game’?

I'm not at all sure about "fair game". I don't consider any aspect of war or terrorism or any form of violence to be "fair game". I wouldn't consider it completely surprising if a war was prosecuted like that, though. Some of the stories from war in Iraq were hair-raising. Same is true of most wars. I wouldn't make a soldier. I abhor any violence.

Once the violence starts, the peace is lost. What's needed is more negotiations. The answer to all of it is try every possible avenue to restore any kind of peace or ceasefire. There has been a lot of grassroots progress on building relationships across the divide in recent decades and I still think that is what will make the difference, long term. I'm not Israeli and have only ever visited but it used to feel to me like there were lots of reason to hope.

OFC there are many different factions on Israeli politics. So you get politicians with a range of stances. Some of them quite hard line. Same in Israeli society. Peaceniks and "settlers" and the whole range. It makes for a lot of internal disagreement. It's hard to follow even the explanations of how different traditions and opinions hold sway in this and that.

I do tend to think that anybody regurgitating this rhetoric of "apartheid" and "genocide" has never visited Israel. You couldn't possibly stroll around an Israeli city or town, and come away with any notion of apartheid. If it were that simple, it would be much easier to fix. I just hope the sudden prevalence of this rhetoric doesn't damage the good relations that did exist in pockets and at an individual level.

This is heartbreaking. A father says goodbye to his dying son on the phone after the attack.

www.instagram.com/reel/C9Xtgs5KXyQ/?igsh=dGlzOXk4dmFoZm9x

@LiterallyOnFire the concept of apartheid being applicable to how the Israeli government treats Palestinians is hardly a new one. These concerns have been raised for decades, by multiple, internationally respected organisations and experts in relevant fields.

The evidence was clear in Gaza 20 years ago. It is clear in the Occupied Territories today. I struggle to see how anyone could look at what happens there and not see a systematic approach of oppression, separation and dehumanisation. The policy of Hafrada is very similar to apartheid in a number of respects.

What we have seen, heard and experienced over the years has been the systematic dehumanisation and brutal treatment of a population based on their ethnicity. Members of that population are seen as less than human, as deserving of eradication in the same way as a pest infestation (actual comparison someone gave me). There have been clear statements of genocidal intent, and actions consistent with efforts in that direction.

I've seen conflict, I've seen disasters, and what I'm seeing right now in Gaza (granted, second hand as I'm not physically there now) goes beyond those. This looks enough like a genocide evolving in front of us that there really needs to be intervention soon to prevent even more deaths of innocent people.

Netanyahu unclear whether Deif has been killed.

God love those poor people, how much more can they take. Their lives appear completely dispensable.

RTE news : At least 90 killed in Gaza as Israel targets Hamas chief

www.rte.ie/news/world/2024/0713/1459702-israel-gaza/

I do tend to think that anybody regurgitating this rhetoric of "apartheid" and "genocide" has never visited Israel.
Both Mandela and Desmond Tutu visited Israel and the occupied territories.
Both called it an apartheid regime, both , I think, knew what apartheid looked like, don't you think?
"I have been to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, and I have witnessed the racially segregated roads and housing that reminded me so much of the conditions we experienced in South Africa under the racist system of Apartheid." Desmond Tutu.

This is so poignant, thanks @BelleHathor . It gets to the crux of the issue too - one set of people’s happiness and prosperity cannot be at the expense of another group’s misery and loss.

@LiterallyOnFire thank you for your response. I have read it and am definitely going to respond later when I have a bit more time.

https://x.com/abierkhatib/status/1812284034212560913?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

Piers Morgan

Everybody in Israel knows the occupied territories is an apartheid regime.

The former Israeli PM wrote about it this week, which I posted.

"A Warning: Israel Will Have No Defense When It Is Charged With Crimes Against the Palestinians" Former PM Ehud Olmert www.mumsnet.com/Talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5118175-a-warning-israel-will-have-no-defense-when-it-is-charged-with-crimes-against-the-palestinians-former-pm-ehud-olmert

This is a pretty bleak description of life in the West Bank by NYT journalist Chris Hedges, published 2 days ago.
Some words may offend but it is worth 5 minutes of your time.

"I returned to occupied Palestine, from where I had reported for The New York Times, after two decades. I experienced once more the visceral evil of Israel’s occupation. "

scheerpost.com/2024/07/12/chris-hedges-the-old-evil/

I had about 5 posts removed. I won't bother with this thread now since opinions that are not slurs or hatred are reported. I was talking about a report where hezbollah were reported to be joining in etc. Misconstrued or didn't agree with it, or something, so someone reported it. It obviously bothered someone who went through reporting every post. 😂 Then I kept getting asked to reply to a question that apparently was asked of me earlier (it wasn't). The poster has since apologised for that.

Its a bit pointless bothering really 🙄

Who was he talking to and what was the context I couldn't figure it out.

Hate having to agree with him

@Dulra

Same. Wish the video had played longer to see the response.

I know, I just had this overwhelming feeling of “even piers Morgan is starting to get it!”

Although I appreciate that this may be more about getting Netanyahu out than any real change.

https://x.com/stairwayto3dom/status/1812467031159304430?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

They just bombed another school, pure evil 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

https://x.com/ytirawi/status/1812425410954629399?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

“An Israeli soldier on the pulpit holding the Quran, with explosives placed on the walls of the mosque moments before its detonation.”

I’d be so, so deeply ashamed if any child of mine ever acted like this. I don’t think I could ever get past it. It’s not just all the sick bloodthirsty violence, it’s also the moments like this when they think they are being clever and they are in fact being utter nasty little tossers.

It Is despicable and unworthy of any disciplined army.