To say the London Palestinian marches should be stopped

[KarmaCaramello]

They are weekly marches found to be organised by organisations with links to Hamas, and at least one ex Hamas member.

They are supporting a terrorist organisation that has just committed the deadliest day in Israel’s history. An Iranian dissident was arrested for holding a sign saying Hamas is Terrorist, despite the fact that they are a UK-designated terrorist organisation - because protestors assaulted him on seeing the sign.

If they were calling for peace and fewer casualties they would be condemning Hamas and calling for them to surrender.

AIBU to think this is deeply disturbing and has no place on the streets of London. Note - terrorist support is illegal and not protected speech.

Or maybe we interpret the differently. As a hypothetical example... someone might criticise the idf...I don't consider that on its own anti semetic. But let's say they then bring up the holocaust, I would then consider that to be anti semetic.

Some examples I've experienced:

I was told it's antisemitic to have a Palestinian flag at an event raising funds for Palestinians.

I was told it was antisemitic to say the IDF have killed people I care about (my friends and colleagues).

I was told it's antisemitic of me to let my DC play with a toy shaped like a watermelon because watermelons are antisemitic.

I was told it's antisemitic to say I share concerns expressed by the UN about human rights violations.

I was told it's antisemitic to criticise the Israeli government, settlers or the IDF.

So I've never once heard or read anyone admit that they're anti semetic ergo anti semitism doesn't exist. It's all an absolute figment of my imagination.

In which case, racism, islamophobia and homophobia also do not exist as I've never once heard a single person admit to them.

@Scirocco Well if you were told you were being antisemitic specifically for these reasons (which, as you rightly say aren't antisemitic) I hope the comments were deleted by Mumsnet and I'm sorry you were accused of that because I find you one of the most balanced posters on here. Nevertheless, it isn't happening "all the time" is it? Since October I've only seen this happen very rarely, and being very anti-Israeli government and also Jewish (and therefore without extreme bias) I'd say I have a good radar for what does and doesn't constitute antisemitism in the context of the 'conflict in the middle east'.

@Hélène79 unfortunately most of the comments I've received in that vein on social media and real life have not been challenged or deleted. I may encounter these things disproportionately though, as I've been active in human rights and aid work, where polarisation has been a real problem and led to strong feelings.

That's not what was being discussed though, was it. A guy being told to leave because he's visibly Jewish is what was being discussed. Your attempt at minimising or denying anti-Semitism is a problem worth discussing has been noted.

I get it, people don't like admitting that they or people they like or march alongside are anti-Semites who won't hesitate to threaten someone for wearing a kippah. I get it. It's not a nice thing to have to own up to. It must be very uncomfortable to have to accept that you have been marching alongside people who hate Jews (unless, of course, they're the right type of Jew). But surely we can all agree now that anti-Semitism at the marches is a problem. The evidence is there unless you choose to not see it. It's there. It's been shared on here. You can no longer plead ignorance. From now on it will be willful ignorance. You'll be choosing to ignore it. You'll be actively choosing to march alongside people who quite simple hate Jews for being Jewish.

To be clear, I don't just mean the poster I'm replying to. It's a more general "you". I have no idea if the poster I'm replying to goes on marches.

Point is, the evidence is there and Jews are under threat yet it's being reframed as Islamophobia.

@Humdingerydoo Antisemitism at marches, events and in any aspect of life is a problem. Nobody should face prejudice or hatred because of their ethnicity or faith.

As someone who has been involved in organising events (not in London), I am really disappointed that the London organisers and the Met have been so ineffective in tackling this. It brings shame on the cause, on democracy and on the police.

One of the challenges of an 'all under one banner' approach is that there are inevitably going to be groups demonstrating under that banner who have other views that you wouldn't necessarily agree with, and sometimes that you actively don't want anywhere near you. So it's really important to make people stick on-topic. When we had the independence marches, there were people there with all kinds of views - it was made clear to them that they had to keep to the topic of independence rather than using the marches as a vehicle for their own agendas. Similarly, we've had an 'everyone is welcome' approach but been clear that we don't want to see hate speech of any sort, that we wanted people to feel safe to share any concerns and trust that concerns would be taken seriously, and that we would report hate speech and criminality to the police ourselves without hesitation.

The London marches are huge, and I get that it will be much harder for organisers and police to manage those, but I am very disappointed in what I've seen in recent weeks especially. I'm sad to say that I wouldn't walk on a London march at the moment, not until they tackle the toxicity that's there.

Thank you for that @Scirocco . You seem to understand where a lot of us are coming from and I really appreciate it. There is just no need to spread hate in order to demand a ceasefire.

Thank you Scirocco. You are such a good advocate for peace.
edited to add “ and justice “ because you can’t have one without the other.

I understand perfectly well, I just disagree with you.

@Scirocco

Thank you for your cool head when all around others are losing theirs.

I have just come back this thread and read the last 6 pages and am so shocked and appalled by the amount of antisemitism, bigotry, victim blaming and gaslighting.
Over the last 6 months I have emailed Mumsnet several times and told them that they need to provide their moderators with better training on antisemitism and Islamophobia. They have clearly failed to do so.
If anyone on this thread does actually want to educate themselves about what antisemitism is, “Everyday Hate” by Dave Rich is a great place to start.
My reaction to the CAA video was sadness and shame. As a Londoner, I don’t want my city to be one where British Jews do not enjoy the same levels of safety and freedom as everyone else. I’m planning to join Gideon when he goes for his walk next Saturday to stand up for the kind of city and society I want to live in.
As for the marches, I want to see them banned. I believe in the right to protest but as citizens in a democratic society, rights come with responsibilities. The demonstrators have shown time and time again a complete disregard for those responsibilities and seem to relish the opportunity to spread hate and cause disruption. The marches have so far cost well over £30million of taxpayers money which could be far better spent on other things. Given the PSC appears to have bottomless funds for these marches, including funding free coaches from multiple locations across the country, at the very least they should be contributing to the policing costs. And I would hope that anyone going on these marches has the critical thinking skills to ask themselves who is funding PSC and who benefits from hate on the streets of London and a breakdown in social cohesion.

I agree @steph97.
The support for these marches, the justifications for Hamas and the blatant antisemitism on this board chills me.

No wonder Jews in this country are afraid.

I'm going to become quite pedantic with generalisation comments such as the justifications for Hamas and the blatant antisemitism on this board
I know it is time consuming to point out the exact posters you are referring to but I think it does all contributors a disservice when that isn't done and it is also dismissive of those that may disagree with you but are certainly not anti-semitic or Hamas supporters.

We are all individuals posting here not part of any collective so need to be taken to task or reported on as individuals.

If you see antisemitism and people supporting Hamas, then you should report it. Antisemitism is hate speech and Hamas is a proscribed terrorist group.

When the police are considering arresting someone as their religion is provocation then these protests/ marches have crossed a line. We should all be able to show our faith without fear in this country. Clearly there is an issue and that is wrong/ unjust.

I believe in the right to protest but this has moved on from protesting into something else. Nobody should be scared of openly showing their religion.

They are not killing civilians by accident. You can defend it if you want but you can't make out it's accidental or not the IDFs fault when they are knowingly causing those civilian casualties. If a Hamas militant was amongst Israeli civilians you would not be so blase in accepting their deaths as inevitable and you would expect targeted military operations to reduce civilian casualties.
Innocent people aren't any less innocent in Gaza.

The man, for whatever reason, wanted to cross the protest
Yes "whatever reason" surely wouldn't have had anything to do with his mission to get the marches banned and him attending with a camera to capture some kind of confrontation.
You say that it's his fault because he had a camera man with him (no evidence of this)
I didn't say anywhere anything was his fault. I said attempting to walk through a march you condemn while having someone filming is a pretty transparent to capture an altercation if you're going to claim you just happen to be walking home. He's been photographed and videos waiting around for the marches to begin before he "stumbled across them".
he's a member of CAA and he's trying to hide this (the logo is on the video
Again I said it was mentioned, which it wasnt.CAA would surely share videos of lots other peoples experiences? You're mad I pointed out that it's notable they didn't highlight it was their own CEO in the video at first? Ok...
the video is misleadingly edited (again, no evidence)
No idea what you mean by this tbh. It clearly is edited so I'm sure you're not arguing that? And considering everyone is having to guess what's being said in between all the cuts then it is disjointed as I said?
that he's complaining about being arrested for being Jewish (he didn't claim this and actually says he doesn't blame the police officer in the video)
I said posters were claiming this, which they were, no? It was also being shared across the media and social media with that misleading suggestion too. In every post I said he was being threatened with arrest for breaching the peace.

You keep trying to make me sound desperate to accuse this man of having an agenda but I don't need to? He has a very public agenda to get the marches banned. If you think the facts that he has had a public vendetta against these marches is some kind of "sick conspiracy", I can't help you. You sound pretty desperate yourself to make me some big bad person when nothing I've posted has been untrue so you can stop quoting me unless you're actually going to disprove anything I've said.

Are there links to hamas within the organisers? In which case hamas is a terrorist organisation so why on earth are the organisers not investigated?

All this increases hatred and doesn't help the situation at all.

If the organisers have links to Hamas, then where are your morals? Seriously have these marches stopped the war. Negotiations are the way forward. Not allowing hamas linked organisers to fuel hatred.

Surely Ife the marches are peaceful, Jewish people join in with them and aren't antisemitic (which are all claims made on these boards)then the man who wanted to cross the path of that march should have been able to do so freely.

If people want to protest they should then they should do it in a way which isn't antisemitic and doesn't cause a portion of our society in the UK to be scared or intimidated. The right to protest shouldn't trump someone else's freedoms especially on the scale of these marches where they aren't even a one off.

The son of a gamas leader said this:

https://x.com/59Goldstein/status/1780881264590909449

@Factsareimportantplease

If 'Facts are important', it's probably relevant to explain who that man is. Mosab Hassan Youseff is an former undercover agent of Shin Bet, who lived and operated in the West Bank. He has held strong anti-Islam views, including calling for its 'defeat' and eradication.

If 'Facts are important', it's probably relevant to mention that, despite his efforts for Israel, he had to leave and claim political asylum in the US.

If 'Facts are important', it might be useful to have a date and context for any quotations you're wanting to use. Criticism of Hamas supporters in the US is not in any way equivalent to criticising people calling for an end to war, occupation or oppression.

Unless you're again having difficulty telling the difference between actual terrorists and innocent people you don't like.

Facts aren’t important though. I’ve repeatedly asked for evidence of sweeping and frankly dangerous generalisation made on this board such as all protestors are anti-Semitic and Hamas supporters. Facts don’t fit the narrative of whipping up hate.