Killing of 5 Foreign Aid Workers from the World Central Kitchen

[cherryjamontoast]

I've just seen on social media graphic videos of 5 dead aid workers from Australia, Austrian and British. The WCK are the people responsible for the ships coming into Gaza at the Jetty to distribute food. This was the second ship that departed from Cyprus a few days ago. Once arriving at the jetty they had to distribute the food. They were targeted in an armoured vehicle in Deir el Balah by the IDF. Its now being pick up by the press.Very sad.

The 2 previous occasions I mentioned above were

when the evacuating ambulances from Al Shifa to Rafah crossing had to turn back because the road was destroyed were then attacked in an airstrike outside Al Shifa

when ambulances evacuating from Al Amal couldn't get past the sand banks IDf had constructed blocking the road they turned back but couldn't return to the hospital because the gates were locked - then spent 20 hours stranded on the pavement outside the hospital

All seems a bit inflexible

I've just been listening to Aaron Maté, he stated that the WCK has close ties with the Biden administration and part of its purpose was to usurp UNWRA. At the start of the war José Andrés supported Israel's right to defend itself, I wonder how he feels now he has seen what Israel's interpretation of self defence looks like.

WCK CEO does not think this was an accident, all the evidence would suggest they are completely correct.

"I am heartbroken and appalled that we - World Central Kitchen and the world - lost beautiful lives today because of a targeted attack by the IDF," the charity's chief executive Erin Gore said in a statement.

I'm sickened by the repeated use of "tragic accident", murder is not a tragic accident, it is the wilful destruction of human life. Claiming it was a tragic accident makes the perpetrators of this atrocity into victims, they deserve condemnation not fucking sympathy.

Exactly

And also - well there's thousands of UNWRA staff so you'd expect a few to get killed and nothing heroic about being a humanitarian worker in your own country, probably sympathetic to Hamas etc etc

Seen some barely veiled 'racism' wrt local aid workers on MN

@Parkingt111

Of course you could add failures or incompetence (such in chain of command) as well into the accidental scenario.

But as you say such failures or incompetence could equally instead be viewed as intentional in the deliberate scenario.

It what people want to believe what happened.

Sad but true.

@Efacsen yes, Biden in his response to yesterday's attack pointed out that many other aid workers have also been killed.

This conflict has been one of the worst in recent memory in terms of how many aid workers have been killed, This is a major reason why distributing humanitarian aid in Gaza has been so difficult — because Israel has not done enough to protect aid workers trying to deliver desperately needed help to civilians
"Incidents like yesterday’s simply should not happen. Israel has also not done enough to protect civilians,"

Even Israel aren’t claiming it was accidental. They said it was a “mistake”. The nature of the 3 strikes makes it clear it was intentional to target the vehicles. The mistake (if you believe them, which nobody does) was that they thought there was a mysterious “Hamas member” in the convoy. If you follow that logic through, what they’re actually saying is killing the 7 aid workers is only a mistake because they were wrong about Hamas being there. If the person they had wanted was in the convoy the aid workers would have just been collateral damage and to blame for their own deaths.

@Struggggggling

"3 independent strikes on 3 independent vehicles at 3 different locations on a route coordinated with the IDF

Facts and truth still matter regardless of the delusion Israel supporters want to live in

This was deliberate and now aid will no longer be brought in to support people in desperate need of it."

Thank you for proving my point that opinions matter more than facts regardless of where you sit on the ideological divide.

Yes it is well established and well known facts that there were 3 independent strikes on 3 independent vehicles at 3 different locations on a route coordinated with the IDF. I don't think anyone is disputing that.

The question is why it happened which is where opinion comes in. This could have been deliberate or it could have been cock up / accidental.

You believe that it was deliberate as you are entitled to and that the opposing cock up / accidental view is delusional and pro Israeli. Equally the cock up / accidental opinion might view your deliberate opinion as also delusional. These are both ideological entrenched opinions that cannot even comprehend the other's views

I repeat that because of the polarised views on both sides of the ideological divide facts are no longer important but opinions are. Combined with an inability to see the issue from both sides means that any compromise or peaceful solution becomes that much more impossible to achieve.

@1dayatatime of course facts matter. That's why there should be an independent body investigating this, to establish the facts and where responsibility lies.

@1dayatatime but facts inform opinion and opinion in this situation is based on the facts. The facts discredit the IDFs reason given for the accident (hate the flippant term "cock-up" when we are talking about lives) so that would lead people to conclude, based on the facts, that it is unlikely it was accident it is an informed opinion rather than just conjecture.

@Desertrose2023

Even Israel aren’t claiming it was accidental. They said it was a “mistake”. The nature of the 3 strikes makes it clear it was intentional to target the vehicles. The mistake (if you believe them, which nobody does) was that they thought there was a mysterious “Hamas member” in the convoy. If you follow that logic through, what they’re actually saying is killing the 7 aid workers is only a mistake because they were wrong about Hamas being there. If the person they had wanted was in the convoy the aid workers would have just been collateral damage and to blame for their own deaths.

You are right that "mistake" would be better wording than "accidental" which might imply someone accidentally pushed a big red button somewhere.

Yes it is a fact that there were three separate attacks on three separate vehicles and as such these three vehicles were intentionally targeted.

The opinion is why were they targeted.

Now an opinion on these facts is that this is proof that the IDF were deliberately targeting these aid workers to kill them.

An alternative opinion on these facts is that the IDF mistakenly thought the three vehicles were three Hamas targets which is why they attacked three vehicles. As to why such a mistake could happen then this maybe down to confusion , middle of the night etc or incompetence.

There is no way to unequivocally show it was deliberate or mistaken and to be honest even if you could show this with hard facts then one side of the ideological divide would still deny it.

@Scirocco

"1dayatatime of course facts matter. That's why there should be an independent body investigating this, to establish the facts and where responsibility lies."

Sadly I think we have gone into a post fact world.

Think about it if say an independent body (let's say by Ireland) was even able to get access to the site and the information from the IDF and concluded that it was deliberate then Israel would dismiss the findings as biased, untrue and by a nation with an historical bias against Israel.

Alternatively say an independent body (let's say India) concluded that it was a mistaken attack then the pro Palestinians would dismiss the findings as biased, untrue and by a nation with a historical bias against Muslims.

I fear that the viewpoints are now too entrenched for facts to matter anymore or for compromise to be possible

You believe that it was deliberate as you are entitled to and that the opposing cock up / accidental view is delusional and pro Israeli. Equally the cock up / accidental opinion might view your deliberate opinion as also delusional. These are both ideological entrenched opinions that cannot even comprehend the other's views

Recognising a pattern of behaviour is not an "ideological entrenched position". There have been far too many accidents/mistakes to discount the likelihood that the IDF are a poorly trained and disciplined force who are killing anything they moves in Gaza. The absence of punishment for so many professional failures would suggest that the Israeli government are more then OK.

It's no coincidence that so many of these "accidental" attacks involve the delivery very often aid. The opinion that it's deliberate has simply developed from the facts and recognition of a pattern.

I fear that the viewpoints are now too entrenched for facts to matter anymore or for compromise to be possible

You're right, I won't compromise on my hard line anti genocide stance and I'm fine with that. If you can persuade yourself it's complicated and can sleep at night whilst thousands are starved and murdered then good for you.

As far as I can see there is no organisation that Israel would accept investigating this tragedy

Israel regards all the usual bodies [UN HRW Amnesty] as biased and 'antisemitic'

The IDF general who has been appointed to oversee the investigation is likely to have his own partisan views

It inevitably creates a sense of impunity that these sort of situations can never be fairly investigated

the problem with what you’re saying is that it doesn’t take into account the aid convoy had already coordinated its trip with the IDF. They had approval from them to be traveling on that route. The vehicles were clearly marked and visible as WCK. The drone operator who fired could clearly identify them.

I’m sure some hapless reservist will be blamed (even though he was following orders). He’ll be given a pathetic sentence then celebrated as a national hero once he’s served it.

I always appreciate Greg Stoker's take on things. He says the drone operator would have been able to clearly see the WCK logo on the top of the vans. He also points out that this attack has caused multiple aid agencies to suspend work in Gaza, which, despite the appalling PR, may have been the intention.

Interesting you say that - was just reading that the drone missiles likely used in the attacks are expensive and their usage has to be agreed by senior officers but once the permission is given the junior officers aren't required to consult back with them about how exactly they are used

So yes a junior officer would be in line for being disciplined over their judgement

@Dulra

"but facts inform opinion and opinion in this situation is based on the facts. The facts discredit the IDFs reason given for the accident (hate the flippant term "cock-up" when we are talking about lives) so that would lead people to conclude, based on the facts, that it is unlikely it was accident it is an informed opinion rather than just conjecture."

Normally facts do inform opinion except where the opinion is already deeply held and the person will then interpret or select the facts that back up that deeply held opinion consciously or subconsciously.

For example a person could be persuaded by facts that say Tescos is better than Sainsbury’s but a Man Utd fan is never going to be persuaded by facts that Chelsea is a better club.

But more importantly why is this even relevant on a thread about Gaza.

It's relevant because such polarisation and entrenchment of views threatens freedom of speech and causes harmful division of society. We can see this on other topics such as Brexit, Just Stop Oil or Trans issues.

Just as calling a Brexit supporter racist or thick is unlikely to change their minds, on the Gaza Conflict calling one side a terrorist supporter or a genocide supporter will also not change their opinions. Activism and protest are no longer about raising awareness they are about "this is my opinion, it's right and you are wrong and what's more you are a bad person for not thinking the same way as me."

This way lies mob rule and division and makes any compromise or solutions that much harder to reach. So this is why it is relevant on a thread about Gaza and why it is so important.

@Desertrose2023

"the problem with what you’re saying is that it doesn’t take into account the aid convoy had already coordinated its trip with the IDF. They had approval from them to be traveling on that route. The vehicles were clearly marked and visible as WCK. The drone operator who fired could clearly identify them."

One interpretation is that because the aid convoy had already co ordinated its trip with the IDF and had approval then the IDF knew exactly where to look to deliberately target them. The drone operator knew where to find them and clearly identified them as aid workers and deliberately targeted them.

An alternative interpretation is that information on the route and approval of the aid convoy was failed to be passed to the drone operators through failures in chain of command / communications. The drone operator had no idea about an aid convoy, mistakenly identified them as a threat and at 4000 metres altitude at night they did see the visible WCK markings.

Facts are interpreted to fit with pre existing firmly held opinions and no resolution can be reached that way.

Killing friendly forces is just a feature of conflict. During the Iraq war US forces targeted British troops despite them having the correct identifiers.
Miscommunication happens it may have been as simple as mis identification.

I think what that poster is saying is that the IDF were quite happy to kill all seven aid workers if a Hamas member was sitting in one of the cars with them - the fact that there was no Hamas member present is what makes it “a mistake”, not the targeting and killing of the aid workers.

Of course aid agencies cannot work in those conditions, Israel is essentially saying they will kill whoever they like whenever they like in Gaza, they will not promise to avoid targeting anyone for any reason. Agreements with the IDF for safe passage are simply worthless (see also the bombing of the ambulance sent to rescue that little six year old - they had guaranteed safe passage too, for all the good it did them).

Bless your heart

@BigFatLiar

"Miscommunication happens it may have been as simple as mis identification."

Or it may equally have been deliberate, the point is that because of entrenched opinions on both sides people will interpret facts to fit those opinions.

This makes any solution (other than I win you lose - last man standing) to the conflict that much harder to achieve.

@BigFatLiar

1. it was a deconflicted zone and in an area considered “safe” for humanitarian workers
2. The vehicles were clearly marked (it’s now thought it was probably a drone attack so this would have clearly been visible to the operators)
3. the three vehicles were spread out and targeted separately
4. the route had been agreed in advance with the IDF

This was not something that happened in the chaos of active warfare