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Conflict in the Middle East

Christians in Jerusalem

290 replies

EasterIssland · 19/03/2024 16:59

found this in Twitter today about the current situation of Christians in Jerusalem (West bank and East Jerusalem) and the struggles they’re going through

https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/christians-in-holy-land-desperate-over-lack-of-work-and-upsurge-in-religious-hatred

The situation for Christians is especially desperate as most of them work in the tourism sector, which has been at a standstill since the conflict began.

The source told ACN that for Christians “wearing a cross can get you into trouble.
“Sometimes you have to hide your identity in your own homeland to avoid problems.
“The presence in the area of groups with increasingly radical elements makes our situation even more difficult.”

Christians in Holy Land 'desperate' over lack of work and upsurge in religious hatred - Premier Christian News | Headlines, Breaking News, Comment & Analysis

Christians in the Holy Land are struggling to put food on the table and pay their household bills as increasing conflict and tension plunge the region into unprecedented crisis. That’s according to th

https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/christians-in-holy-land-desperate-over-lack-of-work-and-upsurge-in-religious-hatred

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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EasterIssland · 20/09/2024 12:30

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 12:18

Yes, absolutely.

Hence why im focusing in keeping it as Christians in Jerusalem and not anywhere else.

OP posts:
merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 12:33

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 12:10

Your entire post. The thread is about treatment of christians and people are trying to talk about it by sharing information. You've just lobbed in a generalisation that is patently untrue. You have ascribed something said by an individual to a whole state and its people.

The thread was about the state of Christians in Jerusalem, who are suffering as a result of the conflict? They have been killed whilst sheltering in their own churches, this has been widely reported. The state of Israel (as a government, because they are the ones sanctioning the IDF's actions) want rid of Palestinians, the officials have said this time and time again. This is not mis or dis information at all. Many people think this is a muslim vs jewish conflict, when this is not the case, and the christian population are largely forgotten about. As Palestinians, the christians are very much the victims of the occupation too.

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 12:40

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 12:33

The thread was about the state of Christians in Jerusalem, who are suffering as a result of the conflict? They have been killed whilst sheltering in their own churches, this has been widely reported. The state of Israel (as a government, because they are the ones sanctioning the IDF's actions) want rid of Palestinians, the officials have said this time and time again. This is not mis or dis information at all. Many people think this is a muslim vs jewish conflict, when this is not the case, and the christian population are largely forgotten about. As Palestinians, the christians are very much the victims of the occupation too.

Ok so if we're sticking to the rules of the thread can you stick to only what officials have said specifically about Christians (not all of whom are Palestinians) in Jerusalem. Attitudes more widely to Palestinians, or about behaviour of IDF etc are not the subject of the thread, as I understand it.

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 15:40

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 12:40

Ok so if we're sticking to the rules of the thread can you stick to only what officials have said specifically about Christians (not all of whom are Palestinians) in Jerusalem. Attitudes more widely to Palestinians, or about behaviour of IDF etc are not the subject of the thread, as I understand it.

A quick google reveals that around 80% of the christian population were born in Palestine, so the overwhelming majority.

Palestine’s Christian population is dwindling at an alarming rate. The world’s most ancient Christian community is moving elsewhere. And the reason for this is Israel.
The correlation between the shrinking Christian population in Palestine, and the Israeli occupation and apartheid should be unmistakable, as it is evident to Palestine’s Christian and Muslim communities alike.
A study conducted by Dar al-Kalima University in the West Bank town of Beit Jala and published in December 2017 interviewed nearly 1,000 Palestinians, half of them Christian and the other half Muslim. One of the main goals of the research was to understand the reason behind the depleting Christian population in Palestine.
The study concluded that ‘the pressure of Israeli occupation, ongoing constraints, discriminatory policies, arbitrary arrests, confiscation of lands added to the general sense of hopelessness among Palestinian Christians’, who are finding themselves in ‘a despairing situation where they can no longer perceive a future for their offspring or for themselves’.
Unfounded claims that Palestinian Christians are leaving because of religious tensions between them and their Muslim brethren are, therefore, irrelevant.

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 16:54

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 15:40

A quick google reveals that around 80% of the christian population were born in Palestine, so the overwhelming majority.

Palestine’s Christian population is dwindling at an alarming rate. The world’s most ancient Christian community is moving elsewhere. And the reason for this is Israel.
The correlation between the shrinking Christian population in Palestine, and the Israeli occupation and apartheid should be unmistakable, as it is evident to Palestine’s Christian and Muslim communities alike.
A study conducted by Dar al-Kalima University in the West Bank town of Beit Jala and published in December 2017 interviewed nearly 1,000 Palestinians, half of them Christian and the other half Muslim. One of the main goals of the research was to understand the reason behind the depleting Christian population in Palestine.
The study concluded that ‘the pressure of Israeli occupation, ongoing constraints, discriminatory policies, arbitrary arrests, confiscation of lands added to the general sense of hopelessness among Palestinian Christians’, who are finding themselves in ‘a despairing situation where they can no longer perceive a future for their offspring or for themselves’.
Unfounded claims that Palestinian Christians are leaving because of religious tensions between them and their Muslim brethren are, therefore, irrelevant.

What is the source for the italicised section?

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 17:22

@merrymaryquitecontrary A quick google reveals that around 80% of the christian population were born in Palestine, so the overwhelming majority.

A quick google doesn't bring this up for me. I can find a reference to 80% of Christians in Israel being Arab with 'many' self-identifying as Palestinian, which is not the same thing.

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 18:54

@SharonEllis sorry the link didn't attach.

https://www.twn.my/index.htm

I'm not sure why you want to seemingly try to separate christians from being Palestinian? Why are you saying 'many are self identifying'? Where is the source for this?

Welcome to Third World Network (TWN)

A website containing extensive resources on issues relating to trade, biotechnology, development, Third World, North-South issues, and sells books and magazines online.

https://www.twn.my/index.htm

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 19:02

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 18:54

@SharonEllis sorry the link didn't attach.

https://www.twn.my/index.htm

I'm not sure why you want to seemingly try to separate christians from being Palestinian? Why are you saying 'many are self identifying'? Where is the source for this?

Im not trying to separate Palestinians from being Christan other than than the thread is about Christians, not Palestinians. Some Palestinians are, most aren't, some Christians in Israel are not Palestinian, there is an extraordinary amount of diversity for a small population, with I think 13 Christian churches recognised in Israel and the populatiin having changed with migrants from different parts of the world.These are just facts.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 20/09/2024 19:04

BeretInParis · 20/09/2024 11:55

This could have been a really fascinating thread about the (mis)treatment of Christians in the Middle East and people bringing their experiences and knowledge to bear. However, it's already descended into Israel bad, Gaza bad, Israel good, Gaza good. Please could we look at this in a nuanced way? I'm genuinely interested to find out more about the issue.

And yes of course I'll do more reading on the subject, but I really enjoy the good discourse that Mumsnet can provide.

Doesn't it always. These threads are very predictable. Another bash The Jewish people thread.

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 19:04

The source for the 80% with some self identifying was just wikipedia I think as that's what comes up with 'a quick google'.

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 19:07

YoYoYoYo12345 · 20/09/2024 19:04

Doesn't it always. These threads are very predictable. Another bash The Jewish people thread.

When anyone mentions Israel did....posters immediately go "another jew bashing thread". So are we not supposed to mention Israel's atrocities because they are jewish?

ScrollingLeaves · 20/09/2024 19:09

From Wikepedia about Palestinian Christians
I just thought this was interesting. It is not necessarily linked to any post.

Catholics merged Saints with Roman
and South American pagan gods
so I can understand how an element of compatibility between Muslims and Christians as described here might have come about.

Most Palestinian Christians nowadays see themselves as culturally and linguistically Arab Christians with ancestors dating back to the first followers of Christ. They claim descent from Romans, Ghassanid Arabs, Byzantines, and Crusaders.[9]

That Christian Arabs in Palestine see themselves as Arab nationalistically reflects also the fact that, as of the beginning of the twentieth century, they shared many of the same customs as their Muslim neighbors.

In some respects, this was a consequence of Christians adopting what were essentially Islamic practices, many of which were derived of sharî'ah. In others, it was more the case that the customs shared by both Muslims and Christians derived from neither faith, but rather were a result of a process of syncretization, whereby what had once been pagan practices were later redefined as Christian and subsequently adopted by Muslims. This was especially evident in the fact that Palestine's Muslims and Christians shared many of the same feast days, in honor of the same saints, even if they referred to them by different names. "Shrines dedicated to St. George, for instance, were transformed into shrines honoring Khidr-Ilyas, a conflation of the Prophet Elijah and the mythical sprite Khidr". Added to this, many Muslims viewed local Christian churches as saints' shrines. Thus, for instance, a "Muslim women having difficulties conceiving, for instance, might travel to Bethlehem to pray for a child before the Virgin Mary".[10] It was even not uncommon for a Muslim to have his child baptized in a Christian church, in the name of Khaḍr.[11]

YoYoYoYo12345 · 20/09/2024 19:10

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 19:07

When anyone mentions Israel did....posters immediately go "another jew bashing thread". So are we not supposed to mention Israel's atrocities because they are jewish?

This isn't about the conflict its about treatment of Christian people who are treated awfully in many middle east countries although they appear to be excused whilst Israel isn't. Its odd but predictable. No wonder people support Israel when the middle east is a free for all in bashing the one democracy 🙄

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 19:11

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 19:04

The source for the 80% with some self identifying was just wikipedia I think as that's what comes up with 'a quick google'.

You said "many" self identify, which to me implies that you think they aren't Palestinian, or shouldn't be calling themselves Palestinian. I'm not sure why that really matters though, according to the above research they feel that the consequences of the occupation are making them feel that life there is untenable.

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 19:12

ScrollingLeaves · 20/09/2024 19:09

From Wikepedia about Palestinian Christians
I just thought this was interesting. It is not necessarily linked to any post.

Catholics merged Saints with Roman
and South American pagan gods
so I can understand how an element of compatibility between Muslims and Christians as described here might have come about.

Most Palestinian Christians nowadays see themselves as culturally and linguistically Arab Christians with ancestors dating back to the first followers of Christ. They claim descent from Romans, Ghassanid Arabs, Byzantines, and Crusaders.[9]

That Christian Arabs in Palestine see themselves as Arab nationalistically reflects also the fact that, as of the beginning of the twentieth century, they shared many of the same customs as their Muslim neighbors.

In some respects, this was a consequence of Christians adopting what were essentially Islamic practices, many of which were derived of sharî'ah. In others, it was more the case that the customs shared by both Muslims and Christians derived from neither faith, but rather were a result of a process of syncretization, whereby what had once been pagan practices were later redefined as Christian and subsequently adopted by Muslims. This was especially evident in the fact that Palestine's Muslims and Christians shared many of the same feast days, in honor of the same saints, even if they referred to them by different names. "Shrines dedicated to St. George, for instance, were transformed into shrines honoring Khidr-Ilyas, a conflation of the Prophet Elijah and the mythical sprite Khidr". Added to this, many Muslims viewed local Christian churches as saints' shrines. Thus, for instance, a "Muslim women having difficulties conceiving, for instance, might travel to Bethlehem to pray for a child before the Virgin Mary".[10] It was even not uncommon for a Muslim to have his child baptized in a Christian church, in the name of Khaḍr.[11]

Im afraid this off topic - the subject is just the treatment of Christians in East Jerusalem.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 20/09/2024 19:14

Whilst this level of anti Jewish bashing is rife, whilst ignoring the ills of other countries in the middle east .... it makes me and many others continue to support Israel.

Imagine feeling the need to ignore Iran, Syria, Yeman, Lebanon, Iraq, and all their problems and yet bash Israel all the time.... speaks volumes.

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 19:16

YoYoYoYo12345 · 20/09/2024 19:10

This isn't about the conflict its about treatment of Christian people who are treated awfully in many middle east countries although they appear to be excused whilst Israel isn't. Its odd but predictable. No wonder people support Israel when the middle east is a free for all in bashing the one democracy 🙄

This is the conflict board, and if you read the link they are complaining about religious extremists making their lives very difficult. They didn't mention who, but I think we got the jist from the context. Or are we not allowed to acknowledge that there are jewish extremists, like in any other religion? Edited: The thread is specifically about christians in Jerusalem, we've had a reminder about that, it isn't about the middle east in general.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 20/09/2024 19:18

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 19:16

This is the conflict board, and if you read the link they are complaining about religious extremists making their lives very difficult. They didn't mention who, but I think we got the jist from the context. Or are we not allowed to acknowledge that there are jewish extremists, like in any other religion? Edited: The thread is specifically about christians in Jerusalem, we've had a reminder about that, it isn't about the middle east in general.

Edited

We tried to include other countries upthread but apparently only anti Israel and not about treatment in Iran, Lebanon, Syria, yeman etc etc

YoYoYoYo12345 · 20/09/2024 19:20

EasterIssland · 20/09/2024 12:30

Hence why im focusing in keeping it as Christians in Jerusalem and not anywhere else.

See here @merry .... only mistreatment on a place in Israel.... not allowed to discuss other places 😂😂 typical

Same old people and same old same old 😴

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 19:22

YoYoYoYo12345 · 20/09/2024 19:18

We tried to include other countries upthread but apparently only anti Israel and not about treatment in Iran, Lebanon, Syria, yeman etc etc

I don't have any problem talking about other countries, why don't you make a thread? This thread is specifically about Jerusalem.
And this is a genuine question, but why does the "jew bashing" get brought into every thread when Israel's actions are brought up? I would totally understand it if people were arguing that "the jews did..." when of course that doesn't apply. I do note that one of the posters who made this accusation was happy enough to call Palestinian babies terrorists.

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 19:25

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 19:16

This is the conflict board, and if you read the link they are complaining about religious extremists making their lives very difficult. They didn't mention who, but I think we got the jist from the context. Or are we not allowed to acknowledge that there are jewish extremists, like in any other religion? Edited: The thread is specifically about christians in Jerusalem, we've had a reminder about that, it isn't about the middle east in general.

Edited

Noone has said you cant acknowledge Jewish extremists' harassment of Christians. The link I posted upthread included references to exactly that.
However If the only thing we are allowed to talk about is Jewish mistreatment of Christians even though as the Rossing Report indicates the numbers of incidents are pretty small compared to the terrible persecution, torture and imprisonment & murder of Christians elsewhere in the region (including instances in Gaza), then you do wonder about the motivation of the thread.
Is it motivated by a concern for all christians, or only those who are harassed by Jewish people?

EasterIssland · 20/09/2024 19:32

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 19:25

Noone has said you cant acknowledge Jewish extremists' harassment of Christians. The link I posted upthread included references to exactly that.
However If the only thing we are allowed to talk about is Jewish mistreatment of Christians even though as the Rossing Report indicates the numbers of incidents are pretty small compared to the terrible persecution, torture and imprisonment & murder of Christians elsewhere in the region (including instances in Gaza), then you do wonder about the motivation of the thread.
Is it motivated by a concern for all christians, or only those who are harassed by Jewish people?

you do wonder about the motivation of the thread.

how the Christians are treated in their holy land. How a place that used to be safe for christians is not anymore. HTH.

OP posts:
merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 19:34

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 19:25

Noone has said you cant acknowledge Jewish extremists' harassment of Christians. The link I posted upthread included references to exactly that.
However If the only thing we are allowed to talk about is Jewish mistreatment of Christians even though as the Rossing Report indicates the numbers of incidents are pretty small compared to the terrible persecution, torture and imprisonment & murder of Christians elsewhere in the region (including instances in Gaza), then you do wonder about the motivation of the thread.
Is it motivated by a concern for all christians, or only those who are harassed by Jewish people?

Thank you for the acknowledgement, it seems it's too painful for some to even read the words that Israel might be capable of being barbaric. And I'm not saying for one second that christians are being treated brilliantly anywhere (although I absolutely contest one poster saying christians are the most persecuted group in history) but this is a thread about them in Jerusalem, and we all know they are under occupation., which is having a disastrous effect.

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 20:00

I think 'not safe any more' is an exaggeration. Not as safe, certainly, and that is obviously bad, and distressing. But nobody in Israel, the WB or Gaza is as safe as they were before 7 October.

The report you cite talks about international condemnation of the incidents that have occurred.

it says 'It is crucial to
emphasize that harassing behaviors are not
normative, and the majority of individuals,
irrespective of their views on Christianity or
other religious do not partake in such actions'.

They say 'The targeting of Christianity is not, on the whole, explicitly encouraged by the political leadership or the Israeli authorities' but the rise of the religious extremist tendencies among some sections of society & authorities is having an impact.

The report talks about recording of incidents, which is important, recommends training & cross denominational work to protect religiuous minorities, which looks positive and entirely in keeping with what you would expect.

I dont know what else you want us to say?

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 20:03

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 19:34

Thank you for the acknowledgement, it seems it's too painful for some to even read the words that Israel might be capable of being barbaric. And I'm not saying for one second that christians are being treated brilliantly anywhere (although I absolutely contest one poster saying christians are the most persecuted group in history) but this is a thread about them in Jerusalem, and we all know they are under occupation., which is having a disastrous effect.

Is anything in the report really 'barbaric'? Unacceptable and distressing, but barbaric? The report is not about 'Israel' it is about the actions of a small number of people in Israel.